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I sometimes get agitated at small stuff, like "Why isn't the cat litter being cleaned?" or "Who left this on the sink?" or "Why is my computer doing this so?", you knew, small stuff that makes me go "Fucking why is it like this". Today, a few of these exact moments happened, so each it did I caught myself....with the cat litter, I looked at it, got angry and said "Why the fuck isn't it clea..." but immediately stopped, took a deep breath, messaged my sister and said "Hey hey, when you're home please make sure your cat's litter box is cleaned", she wrote "Sorry, forgot, will do". I can give a dozen other examples, but is this how stoicism is supposed to work? Each time I got mad I would catch, breath, and tell myself that I won't get mad at it. I would think about the "issue" a bit but didn't get angry ruminating about it. Is this how it works and how long before it becomes natural?

Yes, as long as you're not repressing the feelings, but rather bringing them in to light of wisdom. It will take varying times depending on the depth of the emotion and how often you're confronting it. For instance the fear of death might take a lifetime if it's ever even healed, whereas the frustration of bad drivers may only take a month.

Reading is one thing and putting it into action is another. I finished reading Meditations last night and all day today have "caught" myself thinking negatively, and adjusting. Is this how it's supposed to work when you start applying it?

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I know Diogenes wasn't a Stoic but of course he was one of the main reasons why Stoicism came about. What I would like to know is, would he be classed as mentally ill by today's standards and how much so? He seemed like someone who was able to completely detach himself from his own ego, which I think is a really good thing, however I'm not sure how anyone completely sane could actually achieve this to the extent that Diogenes apparently did. He walked around barely clothed, lived in filth with dogs and shouted at passers-by. Whilst I think that it shows a good example of how we should not care about the external world, especially in order to be happy, these really don't sound like the actions of a sane person. Was he happy? We should believe so from what we've heard about him yet it's hard to believe that someone who was a Cynic and not an actual Stoic could be so happy without any external sources of happiness whilst also being mentally stable.

>We should believe so from what we've heard about him yet it#s hard to believe that someone who was a Cynic and not an actual Stoic could be so happy without any external sources of happiness whilst also being mentally stable. Cynics were actually the hardcore version of Stoics- they claimed that externals aren't indifferent but negative (they aren't Virtue, so spending time on them is wasted), so that actually makes a lot of sense. Zeno, the founder of Stoicism was actually the pupil of Crates the Cynic, who supposedly was a pupil of Diogenes of Sinope. There's a famous story involving lentil soup which showed that his teachings were at times too difficult for Zeno to handle. Still, Zeno respected his teacher a lot. And the way the stories about Diogenes and Crates are presented would suggest that they were greatly admired by their contemporaries, rather than thought mad.

Was Diogenes mentally ill?

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I'm quite aware that Stoicism shouldn't be blindly followed like a religion. Also, we shouldn't worry too much about things/people beyond our control. But is there an instance that at some point we call out those who proclaim themselves? This does not include those who are just starting to practice but this is about those who say they're "pure Stoic" Edit: Wow! Thank you guys for your awesome answers. I, myself is not practicing stoicism and maybe I just constructed the words that makes it look like that I'm seeking advice which is not. Yet, it's still awesome to hear the thoughts of the Stoicism community

As a quasi-stoic, I don't care what others do.

Do Stoics call out those who call themselves "Stoics" or practice "Stoicism" yet they doesn't seem so?

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Aurelius talks over and over about how the praised and the praiser are both short-lived. Reputation doesn't matter because the famous and the audience will soon be dead. As I've begun to internalize this logic, I find it difficult not to (inadvertently) extend it to wisdom and virtue. Both the wise and the fruits of their wisdom will also soon perish. The virtuous and the virtue will both soon be dead. Why do they matter, and fame does not? I know this is the exact opposite of what Stoicism teaches, but I'm having some trouble following the rationale. Wisdom and virtue are, of course, qualities that are under our control, while fame is not. That I understand - but what I don't understand is why virtue matters at all, considering the heavy emphasis on the fleeting nature of life. Why does wisdom matter if we will all soon be dead? What keeps you from devolving into nihilism?

I saw a short video about a guy who was thinking the same way you are. He went further and further down the hole of nihilism. He had a week's vacation and he spent the entire week sitting on his couch doing nothing. He was depressed. He went to the bathroom when he had to go to the bathroom, he fell asleep when he had to sleep, and he went and got something to eat when he was hungry. And he sat on the couch day after day. Toward the end of that week he was feeling extremely bored and he remembered an old video game he had from years ago. He got it out and was surprised that the controller still worked. He spent an hour playing that game and he won just like he had when he was much younger. He realized two things. One is that the game had absolutely no meaning to anything. The second is that he had fun playing the game. If life has no meaning, no purpose, no relevancy, if it's all going to be gone when you die, you can still have fun playing it. And Stoicism is one of several eudaimonic philosophies of life that talk about how to play the game of life in the most enjoyable way possible.

Why does wisdom matter if we will all soon be dead?

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I've got into philosophy maybe a year a go, thanks to stoicism. I've red Meditations, Enchiridion, Seneca's Letters a couple of times, also this subreddit and listen to a couple of podcasts. I'd like to explore more philosophies, but I have no clue where to go. Should I go to the most classic authors (Plato, Socrates...?) or into something more modern (Freud, Nietzsche...?) Full disclosure, besides stoicism, I have no clue about philosophy, I but I want to change that. I'd like to read something that complements, or maybe opposes stoicism somehow, in order to see different points of views, but also how different ways of thinking can complement each other. Appreciate any suggestion!

Just start at the beginning and learn it all. [Daniel Dennett](https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/) said it well in [Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking](https://www.abebooks.com/products/isbn/9781846144752?cm_mmc=ggl-_-COM_DSAETAFEED_Trade-_-naa-_-naa&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9cqJv9qe6wIVjLLICh1wgwG6EAAYASAAEgKUwPD_BwE), "the history of philosophy is in large measure the history of very smart people making very tempting mistakes, and if you don't know the history, you are doomed to make the same darned mistakes." I particularly enjoy Peter Adamson's [A History of Philosophy Without any Gaps](https://historyofphilosophy.net) podcast. Edit: spelling

From stoicism to other philosophies...

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Hi, so i'm kinda new to stoicism and probably not the best at elaborating on the many deeper beliefs that some of you have. I was trying explain to my friend about it and she said that it sounds very similar to Taoism (or Daoism). Do you guys agree with this? I looked it up and there are concepts like "wu wei" that are similar but different. Since stoicism originated in Greece, I'm interested about the potential of overlapping beliefs in other regions/cultures. What are the other philosophies/religions that stoicism shares similar concepts with? Edit: I realized I was being broad with my question, I was kinda hoping for specific examples of overlap. I'm wondering what most ideologies agree with. Honestly I haven't dwelled that deep into stoicism, i usually pick and choose my beliefs and try not to identify with one specific philosophy/religion because in my opinion nothing is 100% right all the time.

True wisdom points to the same thing, you will find similarities if you're looking at the end product. Similarities can be equally found from all over the world, which is why we should (if we want to apply wisdom) focus on the differences of practices rather than the similarities of their goals - noticing those similarities will come naturally

Stoicism vs Taoism

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I find it very difficult to explain Stoicism whenever I get asked about it in conversation. Its not that I dont understand it but I seem incapable of compressing it and communicating it so I always just recommend a book, which tends to kill the convo. Does anyone have a good explanation of Stoicism that doesnt require any preexisting knowledge of it?

I like this paragraph in the FAQ: >Stoicism is a philosophy of life, a practical guide to applying wisdom to your daily choices, focused on living life as a thriving rational being, characterized by excellence in judgement and the fulfilled happiness that is to the mind what robust healthy fitness is to the body. Stoics believe that, just as physical pain is caused by illness and injury to the body, human distress is caused (at least in part, and according to orthodox Stoicism, entirely) by mistaken judgments and incorrect beliefs, particularly about good and bad. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/faq

How to explain Stoicism to someone who has no idea?

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I've been studying and practising Stoicism quite seriously for roughly a year now and in doing so have been astounded and very grateful to see so many doing the same on here. It is wonderful to see so many helping each other out with understanding and applying this philosophy here on Reddit but I've never met anyone in my life who at all applied these principles or the philosophy. This may of course be due to the fact that such a small percentage of the population engages in this philosophy at all but this subreddit is not particularly small either with a quarter of a million members. So I wonder, how many of you guys consider yourself to be genuine and practising Stoics or is it just something you like reading about from time to time? I find this rather interesting. Thanks a lot for any replies!

Observation: Many Stoics are reluctant to just come out and say they are Stoics. Instead they append something like "aspiring" in front, as a disclaimer, lest they seem pretentious. Yet a `prokopton` is a Stoic. If your definition of "Stoic" excludes real and fallible humans like Zeno, Cato, and Seneca, then the word you're looking for is "[sage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_(philosophy\)#In_Stoicism)", not "Stoic." ^^^1 A distinct reason to avoid directly saying "I'm a Stoic" is to [avoid adding to one's identity](http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html). This one I find more understandable, and myself prefer some version of "I'm interested in Stoicism."

How many of you consider yourselves genuine Stoics?

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I should probably clarify what I understand by the term - to me, wishful thinking is when you create some scenarios in your mind, that might happen in the future and you wish they would happen, but you can't be sure whether they will happen or not. For example - I sometimes create these awesome scenarios where I meet some nice girl that's exactly my type and I manage to go out with her. Or I imagine how I will have an amazing succes with some project I'm working on. From what I understand about Stoicism, I suppose practicing wishful thinking is considered a bad idea. But I would like to ask how bad exactly it is. And how much should I try to get rid of such thoughts. Thanks in advance for your advice

Desires for particular outcomes are called "preferred indifferents". Accordingly, the opposites are "non-preferred indifferents". I'm not a fan of hope, as in practice it tends to manifest as passivity. Eating cheetos and playing Minecraft in your mother's basement thinking "I hope I get a good job" is not the same as "I will network, interview, get certifications, and work my hardest to get a good job but understand that my effort is in my control but the outcome is not." is a Stoic behavior. If wishful thinking is presented as a goal, great. If it's just a lottery-winner fantasy, that's making your happiness dependent on something outside your control and that's not Stoic behavior.

How bad is wishful thinking?

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Hello. I am an intermediate Stoic if you will. I know the basic principles and have read meditations. I'm now reading the daily stoic. I have, however, a doubt regarding Stoicism. You see, Stoicism tells me: one is not to wonder about the future. Yet, Stoicism also tells: prepare in advent. Better said, "devastation is a factor of out and likely we can see that that event in the first place - The Daily Stoic, 24-11". My question is: how can one not think about the future and yet prepare in advance for its possible difficulties?

Of course Stoics anticipate the future. We'd all die on our first hike if we didn't. We don't _worry_ about the future, and we don't live in our heads, being overly focused on it. It simply gets the attention that reason and good sense would commend. Another way to think of it is that we live in the present, and planning ahead is sometimes the proper task for the present moment.

Doubt on Stoicism regarding future

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I've been trying to learn about Stoicism recently and it seems that it has helped me quite a bit. I'm starting to apply stoic practices to my life with some difficulty but I know that it is normal. Something happened recently that made me lose control of myself and just threw all logic out the window. Is this something that can happen to anyone who practice Stoicism? If so, what's a great way to deal with it?

The first thing you must realize about Stoicism is that it is not meant to remove negative emotions, this is impossible, we cannot eliminate the feelings that wash over us in given moments, and also we should NEVER feel bad for having those feelings. Anger, sadness, guilt, rage, all of these feelings and emotions are natural to human beings, it is a part of us, it has been with us since our inception as living thinking beings. These emotions are how our primitive ancestors navigated the world, it was their guide. If something made them feel a certain way, their minds made them react to it and they determined their opinions and ideas about that "something" based on those emotions felt. So it is a lost cause to try to fight the inherently emotional nature that comes with being a human being, especially as a modern human. You see the system we live in today, was built to help us adapt. However, we humans adapted so well that we successfully changed how our reality works around us, we now live in a place run by imaginary numbers and truly vapid systems of value placement. So now our inherent emotions often conflict with what is supposed to be our new modern, "civilized", nature and system. Now that we determined that emotion and losing control of your emotions are not things to be ashamed of, we can get into the fact that Stoicism is meant to help you control your reactions, not what you feel. So to answer your first question, YES absolutely 100 percent, flying off the handle and losing control can happen to any person no matter how stoic they may be. Of course, the more in tune with stoicism a person is, the better that person can maintain their control, but for us who are learning and not necessarily great at being a "stoic" yet, we are susceptible to losing some control over those inherent emotions that rise up within us. As for your second question, there are many great ways to deal with controlling yourself by regulating your perception and how you process what has happened to you. However, in order for me to get any deeper than that, I would need to know what has happened to you, to make you "lose control", so that we can break down the thought process, triggers, and reasoning behind the overwhelming flood of emotion that whatever happened to you caused within yourself. The basic answer though is simply, stoicism teaches us that worrying ourselves with what we cannot control is futile and should be avoided, this thought process can relieve tons of stress, and render issues or triggers ineffective against us. For example with me, I have a temper, I can go from feeling fine, to angry, very quickly, but I rarely EVER have episodes where I lash out and lose control because while inside I am feeling a sense of rage creep over me, outside, I hold a calm demeanor. I allow myself to process what triggered me, I ask, "Can I control what just happened?", or "Can I control what this person thinks or just did?", the answer is almost always unequivocally, NO. So once I determine what I can't control, it is almost always determined that I can't control the action against me or the action or words that offended me, and what I CAN control is how I react, and how I go about responding or not responding to what happened. All of this processing of emotion and reaction is done in mere seconds, but when you are first practicing stoicism it may take longer, you may need to step away or be unable to control your initial outrage, but be able to reign it back in. Eventually, you will get to the point where you can catch the negative emotions and release a stoic reaction within seconds, almost automatically. This process of emotional regulation via stoicism obviously will take practice, and obviously it will take time. The only thing you can do is continue to use Stoicism and its ideas to help yourself regulate your emotions in a way that when negative emotions do inevitably wash over you for one reason or another, you can process and regulate your own behavior in a more acceptable way. Good luck homie!

Is it possible to fall back to who we once were?

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So I've been practicing well for a week lol and i know i have to buy a load of books to really learn about stoicism. I know of Marcus Aurelius books 'mediations' and all the other philosopher's books but was wondering if Ryan Holidays books are good to start with as I've seen some critique so just wanted to see what you guys thought.

Personally I find his work full of needless fluff and Personal anecdotes that don't add value but sound more like bragging. Don't get me wrong, there are good lessons in all his books but these lessons can be condensed to a few pages. There are other modern Stoics that are much better. But if you insist on Holiday I would say the daily stoic is the only one worth reading. Personally I would suggest looking up Pierre Hadot, Anderson Silver and Massimo Pegliuci before Holiday.

I'm new to stoicism, are Ryan holidays books good to start with or frown upon?

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I was born partially blind and was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome in 2018. I'm 20 now and I feel like my life is just stuck. A lot has happened in the past 5 years and I mean a whole lot. From being beat up by two guys who broke my cheek, which resulted in my diagnosis, to being cheated on by my ex who thought that I wasn't the same anymore. To seeing my mum be abused by my step father mentally, to finding out that my whole family are actually quite horrible people, I've only had my mum. I had to drop out of college because of the attack that happened and subsequent depression, which led university to promise me all the support I needed, however they didn't provide the adequate support I needed until it was too late and I was forced to drop out of studying law. I think that I fell out of law too with the lack of justice that transpired from the attack. So from all of this I ended up deciding that my life wasn't worth living and had planned to end it, twice actually. However, I spoke about it with my parents and the crisis team and I eventually came out of that pit of despair and after going through all of this I'm still here. Sometimes I do feel useless and a bit of a failure but whatever happens happens right? It's made me a stronger person and has made me understand the world and more importantly, myself, a lot more. Which brings me onto stoicism, I actually found out about it last week (I think listening to David Blaine speak about it to Joe Rogan) but it just makes so much sense to me. I've always had the values and morals of a stoic, but I just didn't know about it and I'm excited to learn more. I just thought it would be nice to write a little introduction, maybe some of you can relate to me and some of you may not, but I look forward to learning more ways I can become a happier person and live a positive life. Also, I want to work with computers now, I'm just going to have a break for a while to become more positive and happy, there's not many jobs I could do, but computers suits my needs and it's the future as well. I also feel that I've always thought very logically, maybe it could be the Asperger's and I wouldn't be surprised if some of you were on the spectrum, after all it's not a bad thing, I just see it as a different way of thinking and I've accepted who I am and the cards I've been dealt with in the game of life. Do you have any tips for me or any advice? I would really like that. Thank you.

Welcome. Stoic ethics is literally a therapeutic philosophy. It is intended to make people healthier and happier. As explained in the FAQ: >Stoicism is a philosophy of life, a practical guide to applying wisdom to your daily choices, focused on living life as a thriving rational being, characterized by excellence in judgement and the fulfilled happiness that is to the mind what robust healthy fitness is to the body. Stoics believe that, just as physical pain is caused by illness and injury to the body, human distress is caused (at least in part, and according to orthodox Stoicism, entirely) by mistaken judgments and incorrect beliefs, particularly about good and bad. To completely correct these judgements and correct these beliefs is a difficult task, perhaps effectively impossible, but Stoic study, practice, and exercises aim at least to improve those of the Stoics who practice them. https://www.reddit.com//r/Stoicism/wiki/faq The problems that trouble you - the problems that trouble every human - are always a result of false beliefs. Find the things that aren't true, replace them with things that seem more true. It is a good healthy thing and it has been of enormous help to me.

Just a bit about me, what can I do to become happier? Do you have any advice?

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Hi there! I'm quite new to Stoicism. Currently, I'm in therapy because of burnout and anxiety and try to get my master's thesis done. To cope with my noisy mind full of negative thoughts I started using the meditation app "Waking up from Sam Harris" (btw. you get free access on his website), which helped a little. Also, it had some introductory lessons about Stoicism by William B. Irvin. This was my first contact with Stoicism and I think this philosophy incorporates all the traits I wish for myself. But at the same time I think, I am as far away from it as one can be. Because of low self-esteem, I always valued the opinion of others over mine. I was always quiet and cautious of saying the wrong thing in fear of leaving a negative impression. But I think what stands most in the way of finishing my thesis is the fear of not accomplishing enough. It doesn't matter if it's study-related or hobbies like playing an instrument or working out. I have always the feeling I could be better. I should be better. I easily get envious of others and start avoiding trying at all. In my understanding, one part of Stoicism is to accept your boundaries and work to the best of your abilities. But how do you incorporate the wish for growth? I think an accomplished Stoic knows when growth is needed and can still be satisfied with his abilities. So, how do you get a healthy balance between these two traits or do they even contradict each other? Thanks in advance for your input.

It sounds like this is your problem: > I easily get envious of others and start avoiding trying at all. Don't compare yourself to others, compare yourself to the person you were yesterday.

The wish for growth

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Hi all. I have recently come across stoicism and I really like what I have seen so far! Would someone be able to point me in the direction of any texts / books I could read to help me understand and learn more about it? Thanks in advance!

You can of course read Marcus Aurelius Meditations or any of his teachers and you might like to check out Daily Stoic Ryan Holiday's Youtube channel along with some other fine Youtube publishers. Just search for Stoic on the internet and you'll be rewarded with information galore. Most important is enjoy your life and be kind to all around you, but most of all be kind to yourself. Peace friend.

New to Stoicism

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I have a predicament with stoicism, I see all around me natural or undisturbed habitats that are being paved over for trivial retail stores and more and more consumerist businesses. I'm studying ecology and environmental sciences and I understand how harmful it is to our local habitats as a whole, it's getting worse and worse. Every time I see an area being scalped for business and more consumerism I get very upset. I can't tell if I have control over keeping this destruction from happening, which makes it more frustrating to see. I can't just go tell the workers that what their doing is short-sighted and for short term economic gain, they don't care nor do the business owners. Bleak concrete is becoming the new surface of my area. I could always just forfeit and say " this is out of my control therefore I should just be happy regardless because my emotions are under my control", but environmental issues are what I'm dedicating my life and career to and I want to stop this endless human growth and race to nowhere. What would I do about this? I feel like i can't just give up and let it continue all around me, but I also feel like theres nothing I can do.

Do what you can. To expand on this... You might be given a story about personal responsability concerning environmental issues. While there is something to be said about the impact of personal choices on the gravity of these issues (do what you can), it's more interesting to see them also, and to a greater extent, as the responsibility of lawmakers and politicians in charge. They too should do what they can, which is usually more than what you can do AND it should be more impactful. So don't be tricked into a false feeling of guilt and confusion. Do what you can, but realize that there are still things outside of your control even if they are within the control of others.

Dealing w/ environmental destruction

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About this time last year I discovered stoicism and deeply respected the practices and the ideas behind it. I tried to give it a go but I couldn't for the life of me, my emotions would get the better of me every time. On May 3rd of this year I went to a psychiatrist and was medically diagnosed with Bipolar disorder and given the appropriate medication to help cope with it. I barley know how to keep my emotions in check as an average person, let alone as a stoic. I really want to become more rational since the root of my problems almost always stem from taking things personally or letting my words/actions/emotions get out of hand. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

There is a book called Stoicism and the Art of Happiness that is available on Kindle for $0.99. It has an exercise to practice after each concept. I thought it was a great book. Maybe try to establish some habits of practicing those exercises?

Where to even begin?

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Where do I begin my journey to stoicism, know more about the philosophy and gradually apply it in my life.

Read the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius and apply his lessons in your life

Where do I begin my journey to stoicism, know more about the philosophy and gradually apply it in my life.

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Apologies if this post is not relevant but it's something I have been pondering on for a while. I have adult ADHD and I do not take medication for it and as such means the symptoms are quite strong. I lead a good life and am hardworking and achieve the goals I set out. Its just a lot of the time I don't feel able to control my emotions and this is the part of stoicism I struggle with. For example, in certain situations I am very prone to strong emotional change, defensiveness, ego based decision making and outburts of energy. From my understanding of Soticism, its almost the oposite of these things. In my research of Soticism, it is very much how I would like to live my life and in many instances I do so. When I think consciously, it is always with soticism in mind. However, in other times (probaly about 80% of the time) I make impuslive decisions which are very un-stoic, but these I would say are made sub-consciously. Is Stoicism an unobtainable goal for someone such as myself or are these just excuses I am making to not change? It may sound like the latter, but if you have ADHD you can understand how some of these emotional outbursts are subconscious and are often done without thinking.

Stoicism is an unobtainable goal for everyone. No person can be a perfect sage, even the ancient masters fell short of their own ideals. Humans fall short from perfection, it's what we do. We should still strive towards it however we can.

Is Stoicism and ADHD compatible?

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What do a lot of you think about cynicism and it's teachings? Would you argue it is worth studying to some degree? Seeing as it paved the way for stoicism I notice a lot of similarities between them with a few fundamental differences. I'm also curious on how many of you view cynics like Diogenes or Zeno, as well as Antisthenes.

The Cynics were a pretty hardcore group, that saw social norms and material goods as being inconsistent with human nature. They basically lived homeless, exposed to the elements, and often expressed a contemptuous attitude towards regular people. Epictetus admired them, but cautioned his students that it was a very challenging path to pursue. https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/discourses/george-long/text/book-3#chapter-3-22 The wikipedia chapters on the famous Cynics are very much worth reading, and you can follow all the links and be there for quite some time. Here's a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crates_of_Thebes

Cynicism vs Stocism?

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I don't know if it's a mental block, but whatever it is, I find myself unfortunately reading all the time but never putting it into practice. Is it just me?

In general personal development culture, such a person would be called a "personal development junkie" - someone who avoids their issues by filling their mind with information they never use. In terms of Stoicism, you might be considered a Sophist: [https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/1477#lf0755\_label\_263](https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/1477#lf0755_label_263) Ask yourself if you're acting on desire, aversion, pursuit, or avoidance in not putting anything into practice. Also consider if you're maintaining the natural and acquired relations in only reading and not applying. I have trouble putting things I read into practice too, and realizing why I'm having this trouble (thus giving me something to work on) helps me out of it.

There's a term for people who want to become Entrepreneurs and read all about it but never do it, they call them "Wantrepreneurs". Is there a term for those who read about Stoicism all day but never put it into practice, because that's me.

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I'm coming back from a business trip and have to let them go in the morning when I'm back in the office. They deserve it. They've been rude to the team and have stopped doing their work and started lying about it after we tried to work on a path of improvement. I have been practicing stoicism and moderating my initial feelings for a while now. It's very helpful. But it's usually more abstracted from the moment. Like I get stressed about something at work and then work my way through how I'm ok and the situation is fine and how my amazing team is handling it. But this is going to be much more intense in that exact moment. Do you have any advice for me to help work through this unfortunate task? This isn't exactly something I can pause to take a step back from during the event. Thank you!!

Negative visualization - Basically imagine the absolute worst case scenario. Imagine perhaps that the employee physically or verbally assaults you? Then imagine you sitting there handling it perfectly stoically. Once you have prepared yourself mentally for the very worst, and have handled it virtuously in your mind, then anything less that actually happens should be much more easily handled.

I have to let someone go tomorrow.

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Recently came into money which I have no need for and want to give back to local community. Wife and I are well enough and see this as an opportunity to do good.

I believe the general Stoic belief is that you have to do good to feel good and donating to your local foster care program (Court Appointed Special Advocates for Children) or some equivalent is definitely doing some good.

What does Stoicism say about charity and giving back.

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what does Stoicism says about death and how to deal with a loss? edit: ty anyone for your help, I also looked at older posts regarding death and Stoicism is pretty simple on this matter. edit 2: a person sent me a dm asking if I need help or coping with a loss, my question was just intended for knowledge purposes, I am not involved in any of my posts, I do it to discuss facts.

I like Seneca's take on the matter: "Death is neither a good nor a bad thing, for that alone which is something can be a good or a bad thing: but that which is nothing, and reduces all things to nothing, does not hand us over to either fortune, because good and bad require some material to work upon. Fortune cannot take ahold of that which Nature has let go, nor can a man be unhappy if he is nothing." To hear what he has to say about loss, look up Seneca's consolation to Marcia.

Stoicism and Death.

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Hey everyone, I have been reading about stocism for a while now. Some books I really enjoyed and think I learned from, others not so much. But it has always been very hard for me to implement the ideas into my everyday life and practice them. Sometimes I could reach out to these ideas and they helped, sometimes they did not. But that's enough of the introduction. So this might be a bit strange post but, I don't know how many of you experienced burnout. I mean sometimes I am not 100% sure I am experiencing it. I mean there is no PCR test for this. I am trying to map some sort of rebuilding plan for myself which will include therapy, meditation and probably stoicism as I sympathize with the basic concepts, so I can come out of this stronger than before. However and here is the tricky part for me, currently I am not acting like a stoic. I have a job that I am leaving in \~2 months, I have some duties still that are very hard for me to do, it's like taking 4-5x extra effort to do the simplest things - compared to what it used to be - and at the end of the day I don't feel I am doing my best, because I feel I can't reach my best currently and this makes me frustrated and stressed. Have any of you had gone through something similar, could stoicism help you? If so, did it help you while you were still in the same position, same work etc?

I can only speak from my own perspective here. Burnout goes hand in hand with not practicing what I believe. Stoicism is hard as hell to live out in the early stages because you have to completely reorient your entire way of thinking about everything, but then after that it becomes relatively easier to maintain, but it still takes concious effort, it's not a given. For me I find that when life goes well I care less and less about stoicism, but when lfe gets rough I cling back to it. I can't blame anyone but myself for that. But if I were to continue the effort even when I didn't want to, life would have been better all along. For me it's a matter of being headstrong and determined vs not. Just my two cents from my own personal experience.

Stoicism and Burnout

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What teachings/virtues/concepts do you struggle understanding in Stoicism? Personally, I struggle with an idea that Marcus Aurelius talks about in *Meditations.* He views other people's ignorance in an accepting way, he understands their ignorance and empathizes with them for it. Not only does he try to accept them, but he tries to love them, because he argues that every person has a rational mind that binds us to the "divinity", thus making us all equal. Here's a quote from *Meditations* to illustrate what I mean: "*To feel affection for people even when they make mistakes is uniquely human. You can do it, if you simply recognize that they're human too, that they act out of ignorance, against their will, and then you'll both be dead before too long.*" - *Meditations, VII.22* *(Hays Translation)* I can understand this teaching clearly, but I struggle to actually *feel* it. I assume Marcus Aurelius did too, otherwise why would he have reminded himself? So, what are some things you struggle with?

Temperance and morality especially, but really all of the main four. I'm far from virtuous person. But it's fine, I'd only have cause to be worried if I thought about this and came up with nothing.

What virtues do you struggle with?

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Hello there! First of all, I'm new to stoicism and English isn't my mother tongue, let me know if I typed anything incorrectly. In the book "A Guide to the Good Life" Irvine talks about how a man should go out of his way and put himself in uncomfortable scenarios, to give a speech in front of a lot of people for example, to put his stoic principles to test. On the contrary, Seneca in his 28th letter said "I do not agree with those who recommend a stormy life and plunge straight into the breakers, waging a spirited struggle against worldly obstacles every day of their lives. The wise man will put up with these things, not go out of his way to meet them ; he will prefer a state of peace to a state of war" So, what do you prefer? A peaceful life, or a stormy one?

I would refer to a third philosopher on this one, and bring in Victor E Frankl. He says overcoming suffering is one of the highest ways of finding meaning in life. However, not if the suffering is deliberately brought upon yourself; that's just foolishness. So I would say be strong enough to face the waves when they come, but don't go looking for them for the sake of it!

A stormy life, or a peaceful one?

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I am on a reading bender, which is nice of course. I decided to try out Ryan Holiday's book "The Obstacle is the way". I don't know what to make of it. I found it rather flat. It's a nice intro for people who aren't very familiar with Stoicism and the OG's (Marcus, Epictetus, Seneca...), but otherwise it's a bit cheesy. The comparison to great adventurers and accomplished business men is not very compelling. I don't have a big life. I'm a simple creature. I don't have large ambitions. Stoicism is also about remaining virtuous when life is pleasant and small. Maybe that's why I can't relate to it.

I read a few pages and dropped it. There are better introductory books.

Who's read "The obstacle is the way" by Ryan Holiday?

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I think I know the answer to this one but I am very conflicted emotionally and could use some advice. My father just texted me today and said that we would like to change his will to give most of their inheritance to my younger siblings. The reason that he gave was that my wife and I are far more successful compared to the other two families. The inheritance in question would be a holdings of Bay area real estate. Saying that, we are all doing well financially. To complicate things, my sister and I have not been on speaking terms for 5 years. This all stemmed from a silly incident where our sons were comparing their penises (at age 3 and 5) and I downplayed the event as normal and she was very upset that her son had been abused. Despite my efforts at reconciliation, she and her husband have blocked me digitally and will refuse to show up at a family event where I am at. I know that stoicism teaches me that I should not worry about the action of others, only my reactions. The reality is that any money they would leave me would be 30 years in the future and probably would not affect my life at all. But my feelings of resentment to my sister and inadequacy to my parents still run deep in me. Also, I feel that I have sacrificed the entirety of my 20s and 30s dedicated to medical training and building my practice that has allowed me to build up a financial reserve while my siblings had a lot more fun during those years plus wasted time dealing with substance abuse. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated do you help me approach and work through this issue.

Did you truly sacrifice your youth? You helped others, learned discipline and made sure you never *have* to work again. You say your siblings may have had more fun but hedonism and overindulgence doesn't necessarily lead to happiness. Think of Marcus's co-emperor Lucius Verus who loved to party to excess but, according to Marcus, died unhappy and unsatisfied. If your Sister feels like she has 'won' because she will have title to a patch of dirt that is nothing more than materialism and will not make her happy in the end.

Conflicted About Inheritance issues

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I haven't finish the book still but for ***me,*** it's a great way to begin to understand what stoicism is. I've come upon, a few post and articles that describe stoicism in a way that is inhumane. It isn't natural at all for us to literally not care about stuff, humans don't work like that. He explains how to be a stoic in a **healthy** way.

If the goal of stoicism is to control your reaction to external forces, then I assume this book would be working toward that goal.

Can "The subtle art of not giving a f*ck" be considered a beginners guide to stoicism?

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I am new to stoicism, so sorry if that's an amateur question. But after reading about stoicism, I am having a lil contradiction. If I shouldn't care about the external gains then what's the purpose of working towards any achievement? Why should it matter?

See: [https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/1477#lf0755\_label\_120](https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/1477#lf0755_label_120). A Stoic wouldn't work towards success in the conventional sense because this kind of success is an external. He would work towards acting in accord with nature ([https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/1477#lf0755\_label\_128](https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/1477#lf0755_label_128).) External achievements do not matter. To the Stoic, if they achieve anything that is defined by others as success, it is only as a consequence of acting in accord with their character and with nature.

What would be the motivation for a stoic for working towards success?

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I don't want to go too full into detail, as I do not wish to vent, but since I was 12(19m now) I've just felt empty and worthless no matter what I do, I've been trying to work on myself and have been positive until recently I have been looking at myself from a third person perspective and am unhappy with my self image. I will feel 5-7/10 about myself most days but I have these never ending bouts of self worth crushing which after speaking to my friends about I am able to rationalize my view on myself, however I do not wish to depend on others for it, I wish to control my thoughts or tell them to go away but it doesn't work when I try. I have applied stoicism to grave events even before knowing about its existence as a philosophy and when it involves external matters I am completely fine however this is an internal matter and I was simply wondering if anyone has any advice/tips/stoic practices to help wash these draining thoughts out. I feel as though I've dug a hole for myself, and my severe adhd doesn't help either since some days I just procrastinate all day even though I try my best to do things. Thanks in advance, this isn't a post trying to get attention or anything, simply just wanting to figure out how to kill this negative, demonic inner critic and harsh self esteem level

First of all, relax. Your mind can be shaped and it can adapt to whatever. So let there be CHANGE. Change your life in terms of its quality. You simply cannot be happy, full of energy, open-minded, etc. if you are slave to yourself. Only person who is holding you back from a different life is you. Start exercising, quit vices, start cold showers, stop pmo, eat good and healthy, get the fuck out of comfort zone. When you step out of your comfort zone, by doing things, which means TAKING ACTION, thats when life starts to change. You can read thousands of stoic, non-stoic, whatever quotes or books, but you cannot really understand them until you drive yourself to a point of where you love yourself fully. One way to love yourself is you accomplish things, you feel full filled and most importantly you will feel good about yourself which leads to one thing most modern people struggle with - purpose. Not many people today know their purpose, so if you focus on your purpose and start building yourself mentally and physically by taking real action, you literally cracked a code to life. Last but not least do not try to speed things up, things take time, but you have to work on them in order to get them, action, action, action. Thats when your mind is not able to think thousand scenarios per minute and thats where overthinking stops. Wish you the best, take your time, as Seneca said: Sometimes even to live is an act of courage. Be brave stranger. And yes, you live your life, this is what made me feel good about myself, hope something helps

Good stoic ways to deal with feeling worthless?

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I have been doing a lot of reading and thinking about Stoicism and related philosophies. To help me be more actionable about putting all of this into practice, I am trying to create a succinct "every day life decision tree" of what to do. It should be as concise as possible while being complete. My plan is to memorize and internalize this, apply it throughout the day whenever I can remember, and apply it in theory when mentally reviewing the day. It is not intended to replace the much more complete and nuanced understanding I am working on building, but will hopefully work as a high level summary to help me better apply these principles "in real time" when I can't hit pause and ponder the situation for 5 minutes. The main categories of every-day events I thought I might encounter are (1) taking an action, (2) talking with a person or people, and (3a) experiencing a feeling (impression) or (3b) making a decision about what to do. This includes some ideas from other philosophies so not 100% Stoicism, but I would still love any feedback from this community on recommended changes (either high level: "add / remove this concept," or nitty-gritty: "use this word instead of that word"). Thanks! **Every day life decision tree:** * Start with "loving kindness" and being present, then... * Action --> Perform it with excellence and discipline (for myself), enjoy the process & be present in the moment. * Person --> Have no ego. What can I learn from them? * Feeling (or Decision) --> Is the immediate situation fully determinable by my conscious volition? * Yes --> Assent with wisdom and reason. * No --> Accept past or present with reverence; regard future hypotheticals with indifference. * If negative --> Remember things not bad only our perceptions of things, detach myself from my ego (cosmic outside view), opportunity to respond impressively well & practice discipline (decision within my control). * If positive --> Remove expectations, enjoy the moment, remember the fragility of plans. **Edit:** I just found [this](https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3rpjeq4uxw150t/graphic-Stoic%20decision%20making.jpeg?dl=0) online from [this](https://howtobeastoic.wordpress.com/stoicism-101/) website, which is quite helpful and I plan to use it. But I also still want to keep and refine my own decision tree as it includes some mantras and mental cues that I find more helpful.

Hello there, Could you explain the "distinguis" - > attempt/result idea for me please? Thanks and have a nice day Ryan

Requesting feedback on my "Stoic Decision Tree"

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I've gotten the idea of stoicism dealing more wuth anxiety, anger and stress, it has definitely helped me with those. But I haven't heard much about depression. I just feel like the "pursue virtue" and "only work for what's within our control" etc., doesn't really help when someone just doesn't enjoy life one bit you know. Any advice or thoughts?

The Stoic recognises that she is not her body. Feelings, coming from the body, can be observed, even indulged, but should not controll the Stoic's decision-making. To put another way, it's okay to feel bad. It's not okay to act bad because you feel bad. When I am depressed or upset, I try to focus on doing things I dislike - if I'm going to feel bad anyway, I may as well be productive with it. When you're depressed, you don't want to do anything; but wanting is just a feeling, and doesn't change what needs to be done, or what is proper to do. The Stoic doesn't care about wants, the Stoic cares about is proper to do. That's how I see it, anyway.

Do the stoics have anything to say about depression?

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So my ex and I broke up around 18 months ago. He came back after a few months of silence on my end. And he came back *strong*. But it only lasted a few weeks and he was gone again. He didn't have the "time" for a relationship but he "loved" me. The experience broke me and shattered my self-esteem in a lot of ways. He was highly critical of me. Would say big, heavy words, but when the chips were down it seems that he didn't mean any of it. I've done ***a lot*** to repair my self-esteem and sense of self since then. I was finally feeling "over" the whole ordeal. Then I accidentally found out about his new girlfriend on social media. I hate myself for doing this but, inevitably, I started drawing comparisons between her and I. I'm more attractive, I'm smarter, I'm more successful. So then I started asking myself, what's wrong with *me?* He didn't have time for me, someone who is "better" on paper, but he has time for her? His life is materially the same. Same job. Same friends. But I wasn't "good" enough to be part of it, but she is? So then I start thinking things like, well maybe she's funnier than me. Nicer than me. More sociable than me (this was something my ex criticized me for, he said he felt like "I didn't enjoy hanging out with his friends," but that was *far* from the truth. I was just a little insecure. I was quite young and have a case of resting bitch face). Maybe she's tidier than me (my apartment was consistently a disorganized wreck in college). I don't even *want* my ex back. Truthfully, I could do better. He's mediocre all around. He would freak out at the tiniest things. He has very little ambition. He was either extremely nice to me, or quite cruel. I want someone steadier. Someone I can trust with my problems and concerns. Someone I can communicate with effectively. I thought he was maybe that person, but he absolutely wasn't. It was as if he was always playing "a role." But in reality, he was selfish, reactionary, and a bit unstable. I wasn't even very physically attracted to him to begin with. Nonetheless, this new girl has made me feel like shit. I don't even know why. I know this is a very human response, but I detest myself for reacting this way. I moved to a new city for law school and I'm heavy in the books. It's a very intense course, so I don't really even have time to date. So I'm over here, on my own, wondering what's wrong with me, all the while harboring bad feelings for a guy I haven't spoken to in over a year and criticizing a girl I haven't even met (who I'm sure is a perfectly nice person). Despite this reaction, I do feel like I've grown so much. Changed so much. I *like* myself so much now. What bothers me most of all is, especially because I've moved far away, **my ex will never get to see this change.** **Even if he doesn't want me, I want him to** ***know*** **I'm happier, I'm less insecure, I've got my shit together, I'm better looking, I'm taking better care of myself, I have great new friends, my apartment is beautiful and neat and tidy, etc.** I fantasize about running into him and impressing him. It's dumb as fuck. It will also never happen because I've moved *so* far away. Part of my self-improvement and better mental health has been down to stoicism. I truly rate it so highly as a philosophy for living. As a non-religious person, it's been so helpful to adhere to a system like this. So, any stoic insight I can apply?

As long as you value other's views of yourself (your reputation) your well being will be in their hands. You obviously crave recognition, most of us do, however you need to shift prioritizing YOUR thoughts about yourself, over theirs, and ultimately dismissing theirs altogether.

How to deal with this is in a stoic way: My ex has a new girlfriend... I'm struggling with it.

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So I've been reading about stoicism for close to a year now, but never properly attempted the practice. Ever hour of every day, I'm constantly thinking of "what ifs". I have read about merely observing the thought and allowing them to pass by, but right now I'm struggling to do that as their just ruling my mind. My mind is looking for something to be afraid of, in order to make itself safe, when I'm already safe to begin with. Is there a better way I can apply stoicism to these issues?

I read a comment somewhere that defined anxiety as always hearing the boss music but never seeing the boss. I thought that was spot on, lol! There are some concrete practices you can do to help you ease up on this habit. One is to ground yourself by naming (out loud if it helps) 5 things you can see, 4 things you can hear, 3 things you can feel, 2 things you can smell, and 1 thing you can taste. I like it because it snaps my attention out of the imaginary and focuses on the reality. Donald Robertson (Stoic philosopher and cognitive behavioral therapist) suggests things like giving yourself one dedicated time during the day to devote to these worries. Write them down on a piece of paper, put it in your pocket, and don't look at it again until 4:30, or whatever works for you (that's just an example pulled out of my hat of course). Often just the act of getting it out of our head can help remove the need to keep it there in anticipation of our addressing it. You can find [videos like this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7oGzJ3xciU) where he explains these kinds of practical exercises on youtube. They're not terribly long and I find them very helpful.

I can't control intrusive thought, I want to develop a new way of dealing with these issues.

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So as the question states, how would you go about explaining stoicism to someone who is new to the philosophy or has no prior knowledge of the philosophy. I understand there's a faq section in the about page but, I am intrested to hear individualistic takes on stoicism/ modern stoicism.

With as few words as possible

How would you explain stoicism?

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I've very recently been shown stoicism by someone in hopes it can help me deal with a situation I've been struggling with. So basically I have this friend that's a girl and while she only sees me as a friend, I've developed feelings for her. A while ago, we've discussed the way I felt about her and that's when she says she only wants to be friends. I stepped back to evaluate everything I have come to the conclusion at the time that I value her friendship so I would try to look past feelings in order to continue being friends with her. More recently though, I've been having a hard time suppressing or overcoming those feelings. This feeling of jealousy arises when I hear about how close she is to her other guy friends than me. I'm stuck on how to approach this and deal with my emotions because thinking about it makes me feel so completely dead and unwanted.

The stoic point of view could be: We are friends,we respect and appreciate each other above all. If I am jealous, it is not her problem, it's MY problem. If my feelings can destroy our friendship, they must be ignored in order keep the friendship we both value. I want to say I am really proud of you. Guys usually get upset in these situations and leave their friend... so it's pretty obvious they don't appreciate the friendship itself. Falling in love with a friend can be painful but if you are able to keep this friendship you will become a high value man & friend. My best friend is a woman and usually I am the only guy in girls groups. Since I don't chase my friends as if I were a horny chihuahua, I have their respect and affection. When I like some girl, they are the ones who talk with the girl and say what a great guy I am. And the best part is not how easy is to get any girl but to hear the compliments from your friends. I wish you the best, man. Do your best!

What would a stoics advice/approach be for dealing with a "friendship"

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Please don't stone me. A non-stoic has infiltrated your ranks. I'm looking for written or recorded debates between a proponent of some form of Stoicism and Aristotelian or Virtue ethics. From what little I know about Stoicism (pretty much just the Meditations), it seems like there its not so much an attempt to describe ethics as practiced by virtuous people, but to create a quasi-dualistic (and dare I say impossible) ideal for absolute detachment. For this reason, Aristotelian ethics seem to benefit from greater prudence. In some cases, I would say, it is right and proper for a particular tragedy to remove a man's peace, as long as the man's distress is proportionate to the tragedy. Now, if I tend to become overdramatic in times of distress, which I suppose would be intemperance, I can aim for the opposite extreme, but it seems like this opposite extreme (which is insensibility in Aristotle) is the ideal for all people in the Stoic view. I need to know more about Stoicism (specifically as it compares to Aristotelian ethics). Help me reddit.

I don't know a thing about Aristotle, but I can comment a bit on your question. First off, Stoicism _is_ a form of Virtue Ethics, although I realize that it's a big category and there are different flavors of that. The absolute detachment thing is interpreted in different ways. People understand that for Zen followers, true enlightenment is an ideal rather than a practical goal. They describe it as a very real thing, but they also understand that most people will never really approach it. Similarly, the Stoics understood that if you take their teachings seriously, a near-complete detachment from grief and sadness should be possible, but it's doubtful that many people really expected to live that way, or ever found their way that far along the path. > it is right and proper for a particular tragedy to remove a man's peace, as long as the man's distress is proportionate to the tragedy. I think everyone would agree with that, but with different ideas of what 'proportionate' should mean in practice. Some children are raised in horrific and abusive conditions, and some fraction of them grow into adults who are remarkably healthy and sweet-tempered, while others descend into violence and self-destructive acts. Which of these children display the proportionate response? Who's the most healthy? Our social norms and expectations, and the natural condition of a healthy human being, might be quite different. We currently live at a time were a substantial fraction of the people around us are walking around with clinically significant anxiety and depressive disorders, so I think there is plenty of room here to reconsider what normal really means. With that said, Epictetus's description of people who can lose their families and homes and not lose their appetite for lunch that day something we can probably all agree is more theoretical than practical. I think I can say with confidence that nobody here is really shooting for that level of daily practice. Stoicism is not about suppression of emotion but correctness of emotion, which follows naturally from correctness of one's world view. If we see things for what they are, we'll naturally respond to them in a correct way. In the Stoic view, external things come and go, and humans are pretty good about dealing with that, once they stop talking themselves into unnecessary attachments and unfounded expectations.

Stoicism vs Aristotelian/Virtue Ethics

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As the numbers on the sub increase the frequency of questions which are asked which claim to be stoic ideas also increases. There seems to be a huge gap in understanding of stoicism where we have certain people who study and practice for years and then newcomers constantly arriving which I also believe is wonderful. When I see a teenager talking about the work they are doing it gives me great hope for them that they will have the tools in life. My issue is I've seen posts challenging stoicism being a white men's philosophy and other woke revisionist ideas. While I salute the idea of free thinking that people do, some of these posts are revisionist and claim they are stoic ideas. The issue I see is by not calling these out or requiring some sort of edits, we are misleading some of the new minds who cannot discern or know to discern what is really a stoic idea versus what is revisionist. I'm not sure the right way to moderate this but I think the words people use when they claim things are stoic need to be checked and evaluated objectively versus what someone prefers to be their convenient stoic ideal. I have no issue with the posts as the discourse and forum are essential, it's that they claim they are stoic ideas versus stoic inspired/interpreted ideas.

We've had few similar discussions in the past - what it usually seems to come down to is that it is important to use the right labels for things. Classical Stoicism is great. Modern Stoicism is great. We can happily discuss both ideas in the same place, too, but what we _don't_ want is to give the impression that the new, modern ideas are in fact the classical ideas. It's the misrepresentation that causes the harm. Of course, this gets further complicated when people try to define the difference between classical and modern Stoicism, and disagree about that, too... We could use flair to help sort it out, but the people who most need to use it, won't, because the fact that they most need to use it suggests they don't really understand that there's anything wrong to begin with. I think the best we can do is to make an effort, on our own, to distinguish things thoughtfully as we go. This is arguably a good practice anyway, in every part of our lives.

Stoicism vs Modern Stoicism vs Woke Stoicism vs Revisionist Stoicism which do we want to be?

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For context: 17M, been trying NoFap for about a year, currently on a 60 day streak, things have definitely been improving from where I was prior to NoFap, yet I still go through bouts of extreme depression and anxiety, this was set off because I have come far enough to hang out with the girl I like but I get there and it's like everything goes to shit, I can't speak, feel extreme social anxiety, and my personality just dissolves Okay, so right now I am very heavily considering going to therapy for this. I'm starting to believe that there's a much deeper issue hidden within my addiction to porn, that simply stopping watching it and masturbating to it isn't really enough. Stoicism has helped me a lot and I've had some profound realizations, and happier feelings until now. I've gone through feelings of anxiety and depression before and stoicism has helped me through them, but this time I just can't get past these feelings. So more specifically I feel an extreme sense of emptiness, I feel like I just can't get happy, and it feels like when you have to throw up. Problem is I can't just puke it out, or work around it, even Stoicism seems like it's gone to shit because of this. It's like I know what I have to do, but I just can't. I know that I know what to do but I can't calm down enough to figure it out. Please if anyone has any thoughts on this, or wants to reference me somewhere else, please do so, I really can't even explain what this feels like other than being choked, and having to throw up and not being able to. Thanks :)

Happy cake day. I would recommend the therapist. Sounds like you may have some unresolved issues/trauma that are causing the issue to resurface. Get through whatever residual stuff is there. I view stoicism as a great tool to handle life as it happens, but I had to address my "stuff" first for it to work. Good luck to you.

How do I let feelings just pass? I've been able to before but this time I'm having a lot of trouble. (NoFap)

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My response to his offer of becoming a stoic: "Sorry, I'm highly familiar with stoicism. It isn't for me. It's just not my way. I'm a very intelligent man but I'm very in tune with my emotional sensitivity and it feels like a blessing to be able to feel them to a high degree and connect with people empathically on a higher level. I just can't imagine become aloof, standoffish, and not responsive to anything or I'd lose the passion and reasoning of my altruism and selflessness. It doesn't cater well to me. If I crumble from emotion so be it. I'm sure in time I'll prosper better as I have been currently. I think reasoning and emotion isn't a mutually exclusive thing we should separate when without emotion, we have no drive or impetus to even set out to do anything worthwhile. How we do it is where intellect comes in." Is stoicism really being uncaring, aloof, stand-offish, emotionally distant and unavailable to people around you just to survive in a world like this? If I'm wrong, I'm not sure where. Maybe I'm familiar with the negative connotations of it that hurt me in relationships?

Maybe stoicism with the small "s", but definitely not Stoicism as a philosophy. In short it's about living well, understanding what things are wise to aim for, looking at your impressions about the world and consciously deciding which are the correct ones (like love for your family) and which aren't (like being afraid of discomfort). There is a FAQ on this sub that includes a great introduction.

Someone linked me this subreddit and I don't think this is the right place for me, but I want to post this because I may have a misconception about stoicism...

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Emotions feel like the counterforce at work to the logical power I often see promoted by stoic philosophy. However, a lot of modern psychological research has eluded to self empowerment through understanding our emotions and sometimes tapping into them. One example is a study that showed when people who were able to more accurately define what their emotion was, were likely to feel more in control of their emotions. Other psychologists mention self empowerment through listening to emotions as connected to our personal values. A great example of this would be when someone is angry, instead of just bursting into anger or denying it (and then maybe bursting into anger at a later time), the person asks themselves what value (or set of values) was challenged that may have led anger to rise up. Another example would be when someone is sad, asking themselves what idea or value they may need to let go of. So, for those who know way more about stoicism than I do, beyond denial and authoritative control, how are emotions integrated into stoicism and your own ability to function in life?

In addition to this, I'm learning that emotional management of others is an important facet of the Stoic understanding of emotion. Stoicism says a lot about how to manage emotion in yourself but little on how to manage it in others. I have observed that most people use emotional "reasoning" in daily life to make decisions, and Stoicism acknowledges this. However, many times, people just want you to acknowledge their emotional states as legitimate without necessarily acting on them. I used to believe that acknowledging someone's emotions would require me to act on them but this is not usually the case. Mostly, it's someone concerned that they are not being respected and demanding their due respect. If you would grant even token acknowledgment of their emotional concerns, that's often enough to make them drop them and allow you to lead them towards a rational approach to the problem at hand. This is less a matter of Stoicism and more a matter of rhetoric, via Aristotle, where appeals to pathos (emotion) can be redirected to an appeal to logos (reason). As irrational and vain as this is, the most effective persuasion often requires appeals to irrational forces. Let's face it, it usually takes emotional investment to be motivated to take action.

Emotional Integration into Stoic Philosophy?

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So I've been really thinking about this for a while, but how can I practice mindfulness (staying in the present moment ) and practice stoicism ? Do they not contradict ? I've read people say that they actually compliment each other but don't you need to think and reflect in order to live a more stoic life ? Marcus sure did a lot of self reflection (in my opinion) in Meditations. How would he have practiced mindfulness ? How do we still plan if we are trying to live in the present moment?

I'd also add that mindfulness isn't just about living about the present moment. It's about living in the present moment AND being in an active state of awareness, where you notice your thoughts, sensations, and relationship to the world, and do that noticing with a stance of non-judgmentalness and curiosity. That last part is really important. You cultivate active awareness while also creating a very slight detachment between yourself and the feelings/thoughts/sensations that arise for you. I think that meshes well with some ideas from stoicism, though the underlying philosophies of this type of mindfulness (Buddhism) would probably disagree with how strongly some stoics hold onto personal notions of virtue and values.

How does one combine mindfulness practice with stoicism?

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For me, 15. I began early this year and am in a much better state with my mental health as well as just my issues in everyday life thanks to stoicism.

Don't thank stoicism, thank yourself.

How old were you when you first found out about/started practising stoicism?

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I am still new to Stoic principles and philosophy, but I have heard that Stoics: \- Learn how to take action on what is in their control. \- Use reason to view the world in a way in which their emotions don't govern their way of thinking and behaviors. But what about the other way around? We know that emotions also influence the way in which we think. For example, someone with trauma might have to work directly with the emotions that have been stored in their body to learn how to deal with them. Rational thought won't be enough to learn how to deal with such strong emotions. For example: *"Traumatized people chronically feel unsafe inside their bodies: The past is alive in the form of gnawing interior discomfort. Their bodies are constantly bombarded by visceral warning signs, and, in an attempt to control these processes, they often become expert at ignoring their gut feelings and in numbing awareness of what is played out inside. They learn to hide from their selves." (p.97)"* From "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk. I am aware of how Stoicism influenced much of current cognitive-behavioral therapy, but I would be interested to know how would Stoics deal with overwhelming emotions that are stuck in their bodies.

The ancient Stoics believed that a soul (we can use "mind" too in this context) can develop a condition, which means it's prone to certain passions. This can mean both receiving specific impressions ("this situation is dangerous"), value judgments ("this situation is bad, and to be avoided"), and a tendency to believe in and habitually give assent to those impressions and judgments. They viewed it much like regular "physical" medicine - a patient can also develop a bodily illness or condition that produces certain symptoms, and can be treated by appropriate means. I think that while it's kinda simplistic, it's also a good model to use when thinking about trauma. Stoics believed the way to healing such a condition is repeated, consistent practice. One possible path is dealing with those impressions directly. We can analyze those impressions and try and refute them ("logically this situation isn't dangerous or bad"), but to be honest this is isn't very helpful when dealing with strong emotions associated with trauma. Or maybe it requires a very specific approach - which is what therapists are trained to do, using specific tools. Another path is a sort of exposure therapy. This means as we encounter similar situations with different outcomes, we slowly retrain our mind to produce different impressions and judgments, which reflect the situation better. I think that modern therapy techniques (which AFAIR are mentioned in that book) are compatible with this in a way. The difference is, they are meant to affect impressions in a different way than "logically talking and thinking yourself out of trauma" that is often associated with Stoic practice. Aside from that Stoicism includes a lot of other concepts that can be very helpful for people suffering from trauma. For example the Dichotomy of Control can help with the common feeling of lack of agency. Stoic ideas about Virtue being our only moral value can help with feelings of worthlessness.

How does a Stoic learn to deal with strong emotions that come from trauma?

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I got my bike stolen today. I really liked that bike. We don't live in the greatest area, and I had locked it up outside the grocery store while I ran in to get some things for lunch. I was in there for maybe a max of 10 minutes, and when I came out it was obviously gone. I just bought it about 7 months ago so my wife and I could do some form of outdoor activity with all this quarantining going on. I asked around to a few of the homeless people outside and another guy riding his bike down the street. But of course no one saw anything. As I was walking home all I could think about was practicing stoicism. Was there something I could've done to prevent this? What can I do now to fix the situation? Should I be super pissed about this (cuz I was/am), or should I just brush it off and get a new one? Not sure how to approach the situation, and figured coming on here may help me to mentally process everything. Still pissed, though.

Your bike was stolen. Debating yourself about what *could* have been done to prevent it is pointless because it's already gone. Getting angry about it isn't going to bring it back. Nor will punishing yourself for the actions of another bring it back. You accept that it was outside of your control (literally and figuratively,) and think about what you can do next time. Like get insurance to transfer the risk of theft, or use a sturdier lock, or put the bike in better view of the public to deter theft. Even then, these methods aren't necessarily fate-proof. Heck, none of those things may be worthwhile because the bike may not even be that expensive to begin with. Get a cheap bike, so what if someone steals it? Effort should be proportional to the reward. Replacing it might be cheaper than the stress of trying to figure out how to make it theft-proof.

What's the stoic stance on theft?

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I've been discussing about this with someone whom I'll class as an extreme skeptic. He mostly says that Stoicism is like the "self-help" things which only puts forward things that "sound good to the mediocre" and thus attracts a lot of attention. I can't give a total background of what his stance his but he's mostly a totally Academically inclined person, and admires Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, etc and also surprisingly psychoanalysts such as Jung and Freud. What my problem with him is, he says these things aren't Philosophies. He says a Philosophy has to be rooted with ontology and epistemology, and ancient Philosophy (Stoicism specifically) totally miss that. And when examined under the light of modern Skepticism they fail the test and thus are praised just among the "mediocre" because they aren't _that_ skeptic. Another thing to mention is , he gets quite "emotional" at times I mean he uses "theological" terms to make Stoicism sound as a religion, and tries to belittle me for being a "dogmatic" believer. Of course I tackled that rationally with the help of Stoics . I would like to hear from you all about this. I myself am a practicing Stoic , and I have tried to argue with him for a while but i would like to know what others think about this.

I'd stop trying to convince him of anything. First and foremost, he's literally fighting you over the definition of a word, "philosophy". His skepticism is failing him before it even takes a look at something worth being skeptical about. This is rather lucky for his own ego, because if he were able to get past his dismissiveness, he'd be forced to realize there's not much to be skeptic about when it comes to Stoicism. From how you describe this person, Stoicism would currently be incompatible with his emotional attachment to the pursuit of knowledge, which is noble, but almost always tainted by personal bias. Your friend might be pretty smart, probably smarter than most people here, including myself, but he isn't very wise. Not if he is using those specific words you are quoting. They are very emotionally charged and unnecessarily scathing. Stoicism doesn't require skepticism of anything besides your own ego. This is why he's going to tirelessly fight you on the issue, which is incredibly ironic and humorous. Stoicism is not dogmatic at its core, as no external influence is required for a person to develop a full-suite of Stoic ideals and practices. Stoicism doesn't actually require being taught. You can be a practicing Stoic and not realize it, and you can be Stoic to any degree. 0%-100%. You can be a practicing Stoic and have highly metaphysical and dogmatic ideals about the workings of the universe, or you can be fully skeptic and live a life of "what you see is what you get." Doesn't matter. Stoicism doesn't discriminate. Stoicism is not a very complicated philosophy. It doesn't really clash with other philosophies, political stances, or religions the way other philosophies do. It is therefore extremely uninteresting to debate and compare. Stoicism doesn't require you to be a hyper-intellectual to participate. It is the everyday man's philosophy, because virtue is something everyone is imbued with. In this sense, your friend might view it as "mediocre", but many quite enjoy our simple, little practice, and are happier as a result of it. That is, unfortunately for Stoicism skeptics, not up to debate.

Is Stoicism (Stoic Metaphysics essentially) dogmatic ?

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I started reading through Meditations, and I came across a passage that struck me as something I hadn't considered in stoicism. "11. You could leave life right now. Let that determine what you do and say and think. If the gods exist, then to abandon human beings is not frightening; the gods would never subject you to harm. And if they don't exist, or don't care what happens to us, **what would be the point of living in a world without gods or Providence?**" As an atheist myself who has benefitted from the stoic ethics quite a lot, I realised that I never considered what stoicism taught about purpose of life. Something to keep you going when you are feeling unmotivated and existential, and here Aurelius seems to just say that religion is meant to give you meaning. Can secular stoics derive a sense of purpose/meaning from stoicism? Of course, the stoic views on the dichotomy of control and virtue are tremendously useful, but they don't seem to answer any existential questions. So as a philosophy, is secular stoicism incomplete?

Meaning is not inherent, meaning is created. To accept all that the philosophers tell us, without applying our Reason, is to reject their teachings.

Meaning and purpose from a secular Stoic perspective?

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I understand the basics of Stoicism. I understand not to worry about externals and things that are out of my control. Even though I mentally understand this, I still often react physically. For example, I have a letter coming today from the IRS. My mind knows there is nothing I can do until I open and read the letter, yet my heart still races at the thought of getting the letter. Has anyone had success making their body act Stoically in addition to their mind?

Our initial impressions (gut reaction) we don't fully control, Epictetus notes this in Fragments 9. What we do control is our beliefs (that largely impact impressions) and if we agree (assent) to them or not. As we continually adjust beliefs and consistently practice the discipline of assent the impressions change, and how quickly we recover does as well (again see aforementioned passage).

How do I control physical impulses even when my mind understands Stoic principles?

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So im pretty new to stoicism and only heard about it recently. Ive investigated it a bit today by the use of this subreddit and a few podcasts. Its given me an idea of what stoicism is. I've been personally unhappy for my whole life and have been trying to change that to no success. I was wondering if stoicism could help with that. I'm currently in a situation in which i wanna try applying stoicism for which id like some of your help as im not sure how. My situation is as follows: im currently in my fourth, and last, year of my study. I'm working on my graduation project which i do at an internship. I'm not passionate to my study, but since ive come so far, i do want to finish it. Right now i have a deadline in 4 weeks for my project. However, progress has been slow. I've barely been able to make anything and i doubt that its gonna pass. This has been stressing me a lot. My psychologist told me that it would be best to make peace with possible failure. Think of it with a "thats too bad, but i still got 80 years to live. Itll only take half a year to try again.". I find it hard however to think this way. I cant help but hate myself for being so little knowledgeable in my field. Besides that, i havent been motivated to learn more. I've been lazy ever since we've had to work home due to corona. Its easy for me to get distracted and i keep shoving the hard tasks to the other day. I try to avoid thinking of the incoming deadline and failure, but it only stresses me more and more. Stress has been having a big impact on my life. Whenever im stressed ,i feel the need for a break. But whenever i get a break, i find it hard to rest, thinking that "i mightve forgotten to do something." Or "ill have to do those other things next after this break", which results also in a kind of stress. I cant have any peace in my mind. However, im responsible for failing my project. Its my own doing and its basically my choice to fail or work super hard and maybe not fail. im lazy. And therefore i hate myself and feel disgusted that i act as a victim while this upcoming failure is gonna be the product of my own doing. I dont know how to deal with myself. What would be a stoic approach to this situation? What would be a good stoic mindset? Thanks in advance.

It sounds like you know how to do the project so why not just tough it out so you finish your degree and move on to the next chapter? Stoicism is about focusing on the things under your control. Your project is under your control.

Stoicism and dealing with stress and self hate

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Good day everyone, tomorrow is my birthday... I hope I can vent out a little to this sub. I recently joined this sub during this pandemic and it sure did helped a lot in making my perspective better and how I look and handle things. I'm pretty much a lurker only here but I sure do read a lot of advices and messages to different people out here, it's making me happy for the most part as I can apply what I've learned to my daily life and share what I've learned here as well. I even bought the book "Meditations" since it's highly recommended here but I'm only in the Introduction part so far. But going back, I don't know why but every time my birthday is approaching, it's just a sad day to me always. I'm trying to tackle it a bit better than how I did last year, but I guess it's going to be a sad day again but not as sad as it was before since I'm learning about Stoicism. Is there anything I can do to make myself a bit better? (everyone is busy as of tomorrow, even me as well...) Me and my friends are very busy since it's our last and final semester (graduating), my girlfriend and my parents have work as well. Edit: I'm waiting for my girlfriend to invite me for a short dinner but her parents are strict as hell (which is so irritating in my part before but I'm kinda used to it now) so I understand that she will probably not tell me so. My parents are busy for the most part so it's okay, my friends are okay if they won't invite me since I always see them weekly

Birthdays are fun while you're young but then you realize everyone stops giving a shit. I've learned in life that the more you expect from other people, the more disappointed you get. So now I have zero expectations for my birthday every year and it's brought me a ton of tranquility.

How do stoics handle birthdays?

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EDIT - I pushed myself through the "history" part and now I'm loving this book .. it's so freaking amazzziiiingg.... I'm glad that I found Stoicism. post - I came to know about Stoicism through YT, and when and learnt more about it. I immediately fell in love with the concept of Stoicism. I've been trying to understand Life's Philosophy, so that I can live a purposeful life. (I'm 22) I'm practicing Hinduism & Zen, but now I've made my mind to switch to Stoicism. I started from reading A Guide to The Good Life by William Irvine, but the problem is that I'm getting bored in the very first part (history). Mostly because, of the Greek/Roman jargons. Can anyone please suggest me a simple but interesting book for beginners? Also, if you'll explain me how to build more interest in the process of becoming Stoic. I really want to pursue Stoicism, my life's philosophy and Stoicism is very similar. Help me out. . "As is a tale, so is life: not how long it is, but how good it is, is what matters." ~ Seneca

The Practicing Stoic I like this book. I recently finished this audiobook, then bought the book for my teenage daughter and she is enjoying it. It breaks down different writings from the Stoics, it references each passage so you know where to find the source, and then elaborates on each one in an understandable way

I'm bored. Save me!!

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Hi all ! I'm discovering stoicism and trying to better myself with some success but there is one thing that I can't seem to even slightly improve on is dealing with injustice I can't do anything about, and it most likely happens with rude people when driving. Lane cutting, overtaking on the right, waiting for the very last time to insert in a slow and busy lane... It happens constantly where I live and it makes me mad... The thing is I can't do anything about it. I've tried to let it go, to look for legitimate reasons why someone would do that (in an emergency, lost etc...) but that's not really helping because I don't really believe it... I try and see the good in the situation too, being a careful driver I avoided the accident their recklessness could have caused... But sometimes when I'm stuck in traffic and I see some jerk overtaking everyone on the emergency stop lane I just want to go in their right in front of them and ruin their fucking day... But that's the problem : the only way "justice" could be served would be completely dangerous, reckless and unjust... I could get severly injured, so could they... They're being jerks, not killing people either... So no matter what, I can only suck it up because nothing I could do would really bring justice. Anyone else dealing with that ?

Driving was and continues to be a good Stoic practice ritual for me. I used to become quite angry or frustrated with others' driving. It has taken consistent practice to improve my mindset while driving. Anger is our primitive response to what we interpret as an injustice. It almost always does nothing to help us. The driving habits of others is completely out of your control. When you become frustrated or angered with the bad driving of others the only true injustice that is committed is when you let your emotions take the reins. You have just enslaved yourself to your own emotions and in proxy to those bad drivers. Stop, breath, focus on the realization of what is out of your control and let go. Genuinely practice in those moments and I promise you will see improvement.

Dealing with jerk drivers and injustice in general

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What stoicism has said about stoicism?and how does a stoic deal with procrastination? I've read some stuff but I'm not sure if there's something that has been said before about this.

* "In your actions, don't procrastinate. In your conversations, don't confuse. In your thoughts, don't wander. In your soul, don't be passive or aggressive. In your life, don't be all about business." --MARCUS AURELIUS, MEDITATIONS, 8.51 * "Since habit is such a powerful influence, and we're used to pursuing our impulses to gain and avoid outside our own choice, we should set a contrary habit against that, and where appearances are really slippery, use the counterforce of our training." --EPICTETUS, DISCOURSES, 3.12.6

Procrastination

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I have read meditations by Marcus Aurelius, but find it a little too difficult to apply. I would like to start with something a little easier.

James Stockdale is a popular one. Here's one of his speeches about one of his books. https://youtu.be/pmA_Rn-R2y0

Can anybody suggest me some books about people of the modern age who practiced stoicism??

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For context, today we're seeing our first major anti-lockdown protests here in Sydney (at least in a while) and it's resulting in some sense of frustration for me. Things had been going well for almost a year, and now numbers have been rising (and continue to rise) despite the one month of lockdown we've now been in, but now we've got people going out in-mass without masks protesting. I'm very much new to Stoicism (I'm about 70% through How To Think Like a Roman Emperor, my first foray into Stoicism, and I'm really enjoying it), but I don't feel like I have a good sense for how "the wise man" would react to this. Specifically: 1. What thoughts do they think to themselves to alleviate and accept these events with "Stoic indifference"? 2. When in conversation with other people (e.g. friends), how would the wise man discuss it? Would they condemn the protestors? Express frustration? I struggle to imagine how Stoics such as Marcus would have behaved and spoken about these events. I think those around me would (understandably) be somewhat weirded out if I showed no frustration or anger, and simply seemed completely indifferent, but that's what I've interpreted from the book as being the "wise" or Stoic response. Curious to hear your thoughts - I of course don't want to get political and that's not my intention here - my questions are more about the Stoic response to these sorts of events that are pretty far outside our control, but where frustration could understandably arise that is directed at other people.

Stoicism isn't going to tell you what political measures to implement or support in particular, but it does teach that it is our nature and our duty to pursue the betterment of our societies/communities. Depending on an individual's values and understanding of their community and their evaluation of the threats posed by either the virus or the measures taken to combat the virus, a practicing Stoic could take either side of the debate and actively work to convince others to join their cause. In either case, their goal would be to promote safety and prosperity, because seeking these things is in our nature, even if the actual attainment of them is not good or bad in a moral sense. Frustration is a sign of some underlying value judgment being out of alignment with reality. Maybe it's the irrational desire to be perceived as being right, or the erroneous belief that it's impossible for someone with a brain to disagree with you. Whatever it is, when the false belief is exposed by circumstances, when our unrealistic expectations are thwarted by cold reality, the inevitable result is our confusion, anger, resentment, anxiety, and overall distress. To sum up these thoughts, you can be politically engaged without sacrificing your morality, your tranquility, or your fellowship and goodwill.

What is the Stoic response to lockdown/"freedom" protests?

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I have been a worrier all my life. I am 21 and most of my life I have spent worrying about events that have already occurred and are no longer under my control. For example, if I have messed up a test, I will keep reflecting on how I could have done better and regret it instead of preparing for my next one. When I came across Stoicism, I felt so empowered. I all made a lot of sense, but I found it so difficult to practice. Whenever I come under some woe, I still get affected by it. How did you set out on your journey? And how successful have you been?

1. Be impeccable with your word. 2. Take nothing personally. Nothing anyone does is about you. They do things, say things, and love or hate you out or their own perspective of the world. 3. Don't make assumptions. If you are so sure about the future, go buy a lottery ticket. Whenever I think I know what is going to happen, what should happen, what someone else is thinking (about me or anything else), I tell myself to go buy a lottery ticket. You know how many times I've won? I haven't. 4. Always do your best. You can't do better than your best and it's always changing, moment to moment. No amount of beating yourself up is going to change your past. All you can do is your best and learn from your mistakes, forgive yourself, and move on.

Stoicism is so hard to practise.

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Quite new here, I think I lived a fairly hedonistic life and am in the process of changing my attitude towards it. Was wondering if someone could point out what Stoicism says about personal pleasure. Thanks

The literature you're looking for are the Stoic critiques of Hedonism. Here's a rando blog article that goes into it a bit: https://donaldrobertson.name/2017/06/04/stoic-arguments-against-hedonism/ There's an important difference between physical pleasure ( especially, sexual pleasure ) and emotional contentment derived from moral goodness. Seeking pleasure at the expense of moral goodness is a short term illusory thing. E.g. jacking off to porn feels really good until right after orgasm and then one feels regret and shame. Hookups would be similar. Drugs are worse. In contrast, the long term feelings of pride and happiness that come from standing up for a person being bullied is a deeper and better kind of feeling. Same with building something or doing something important that carries some measure of pain ( e.g. childbirth ) but provides durable goodness for a community. The fact that you're looking into Stoicism after Hedonism is illustrative of the point. Ultimately, personal pleasure is an empty illusion. Edit: spelling and grammar

What does Stoicism have to say about personal pleasure?

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I started to seriously practice employing stoicism in my daily life about a week ago. I have also begun implementing Stoic exercises, and they have helped me be more calm and relaxed. Since there is a quarantine in my country I am kind of stuck with my family at home, and my mother's comment yesterday really made me think that what I'm doing is not Stoic. She said that I have changed and have become 'emotionless'. My goal was to be in control of my emotions, not actually suppress them, which is exactly what I believe Stoicism is about. So, I am probably not doing everything right and therefore would like a bit of help. How can I actually control my emotions without suppressing them and becoming detached from my family?

Replace your word 'emotionless' with nonreactive.. but only be this way when relevant.. for all things/situations irrelevant. But don't be a lifeless dud with no spark when it's time to shine.

Am I doing this right?

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I just read this passage in a book by John Sellars: 'If we tie out happiness to achieving the outcome, we run the risk of being frequently disappointed, but if we make our goal simply doing the best we can, then nothing can get in our way'. Now, on the surface this seems like a perfectly good attitude to adopt. However, let me apply this to a sporting context to convey why I'm still struggling to get on board with this kind of message. Boxer A and Boxer B are both training for a fight. Boxer A adopts the aforementioned philosophy. He is concerned with doing the best he can and whilst he obviously wants to win, he is more bothered about his personal performance. Boxer B, on the other hand, has made sure that his happiness is dependent on winning this fight and is totally focussed on the outcome. Which boxer do you think is more likely to win the fight? I can assure you, of the top athletes in professional sport, 99% of them will have similar attitudes to that of Boxer B, because that is the attitude of success. The attitude advocated in the quote by Sellars is one of failure, one of apprehensiveness that will limit how successful one becomes. Mental preparation is so pertinent to success in all areas of life and so if fear of not achieving a certain outcome drives you to become better prepared for a scenario, in turn increasing your chances of success, then why should you not utilise it. I've posted similar things on here before and often been downvoted so please tell me if and why you disagree as I'm writing this from a place of wanting to get on board with Stoicism, and it's ideas and queries such as this which hold me back.

>Is Stoicism harmful to your chance of success in a given scenario? >I can assure you, of the top athletes in professional sport, 99% of them will have similar attitudes to that of Boxer B, because that is the attitude of success. The attitude advocated in the quote by Sellars is one of failure, one of apprehensiveness that will limit how successful one becomes. What's the point of discussing this, if you're apparently already convinced about what is the correct answer to your question?

Is Stoicism harmful to your chance of success in a given scenario?

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I've been looking into both Stoicism and LaVeyan Satanism for a small while now, and I find myself aligning with views from both ideologies. I know Satanism is painted as "the big bad" but the actual ideals (according to Wikipedia) seem really laid back and unbothered, specifically intended to allow you to enjoy life and take pride in your carnal desires/your human nature. There are a few things I don't like about Satanism and a few things I don't like about Stoicism, but for the most part they are both very appealing to me and match my train of thought well. I agree with LaVeyan Satanism philosophy in the sense that I don't allow any entity or belief system to wholly rule my decisions in life, being an outsider by nature and living as I see fit, and living by my own rules as according to my carnal desire. I also agree with Stoicism's philosophy of non-regret and unbothered-ness. I think they are closer in nature than some would like to admit. Stoicism and LaVeyan Satanism are close in some regards and far apart in others, I think the biggest difference is Stoics seem more altruistic and self-denying than Satanists tend to be. By no means am I a philosopher, nor am I deep into ideology or theology; I just find both very interesting and I'm not sure if I identify with one or the other or something in-between. I am curious what the thoughts of a real Stoic are towards LaVeyan Satanism.

The good is good, the wack stuff is wack. It's the same way I think of most things. Just take the bits you like and leave the rest and call this new mix uniquely yours". I also find all things compatible with a broad enough understanding of their meaning.

Thoughts on LaVeyan Satanism (otherwise known as rationalistic satanism or atheistic satanism)?

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How do I stop lying to myself and start embracing logic? Sometimes I find myself acting like I don't have control over my life, even though I know it is within my power to change my actions. Sometimes I avoid my responsibilities compulsively, even though most of the time I know exactly how to do the thing I know I have to do. Sometimes when I remember I have to do the thing, the voice in my brain lies to me, telling me I don't have to do whatever the thing is. Often,\*gasp\* I believe it, but I know it is irrational to do so, and before long I tell end up repeating to myself "I don't have to do the thing. I can put it off for a little longer." etc. I have become so sick of this pattern in my behavior, I have brought this burdensome challenge that has been popping up in my day-to-day routine to my fellow Stoic brothers and sisters. Edit: I bet you guys get real tired of the pattern of behavior of people posting about their problems on this sub, so I thought I would add that I think the best part about Stoicism has been its way of getting me to question why I do the things I do. I am very grateful for this because having some Stoic quotes and ideals running about in my head on some bad days helps me ask myself the right questions when they need to be asked. Thank you guys for being an unwavering source of support for me and others.

First give yourself a break. That part that is telling you "it's ok to put it off until later" is also part of you and it's trying to be helpful. Take responsibility for it, but dont blame it, it is not "faulty". Then start looking into why you dont want to do the thing that needs to be done. Then practice being truthful with yourself when you notice that procrastination voice coming up. Tell it "I appreciate you trying to help and I see where you're coming from, but check this out" and then show it why it's ok not to put it off until later.

Lately, when I look in the mirror I see a little baby boy in a bearded 19-year old's eyes.

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With all of the books, articles, subs, podcasts, audiobooks, videos and on and on and on out there to enrich your mind on Stoicism and other topics, how do you all pick something to focus on and feel good about the choice? Choosing any one topic to study comes at the cost of learning something else; it's exhausting. This choice-paralysis is def disrupting my tranquility. If I'm, say, rereading Epictetus, and trying my best to focus, I'm interrupted by a thought saying, "Well you've never read [x] or studied [y], maybe it's time?" Anyone have a Stoic take on how to think about these distracting thoughts and information overwhelm?

"If you seek tranquility, do less" - Marcus Aurelius. If you have sources you have read and trust, you would be better served to meditate deeply on the content of those texts until you have mastered them than to read a thousand different takes on the same source information.

Information Overload

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I've been practicing stoicism now for a few years, not religiously and have only lately really been diving into it with more depth. My question is this. Stoicism says we should practice the pre-meditation of evil. So as I understand it is to taking a moment to think through everything that could go wrong with a particular plan. I've also learned that we should be mindful for staying in the present as much as possible, because when we tend to worry about future events that haven't happened it can manifest into happening. When we worry about things that has yet to happen we are only causing grief for ourselves. So when it talks about practicing premeditation of evil, would this only be for big goals, or life events where you're still planning for success but still preparing for the future. Do these not seem to contradict themselves? Of course we should be aware that we will fail throughout our life, and shouldn't be afraid of it because that's where growth happens. Any other thoughts on this?

>So as I understand it is to taking a moment to think through everything that could go wrong with a particular plan Close, but not quite. It's pre-empting the only thing Stoics consider to be "evil" - your own maladaptive reactions to situations (potential or actual). You anticipate ways in which you might fail to keep your will conformable to nature, and you pre-emptively prepare for those eventualities.

The premeditation of evil

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I just finished my first full year post grad, getting my career and life going in NYC away from my sleepy home town. I love it here, but I am about to get fired and will have to move in with my parents across the country. I am fortunate enough to be able to work for them, and they actually could use my help in certain areas. I think more often then not they are acting in good faith, but they can be difficult. We are very, very different personality types. My mom most likely has a sever personality disorder. We have very different views and lifestyles. They are a bit controlling and close minded. I never try to impose or judge them, but they do this to me. With the election around the corner, they will be brining up politics, then getting mad when I don't agree and blaming me for starting the conversation. They also love me a lot and I'm thankful that they are my parents. Its complicated, but instead of living on unemployment across the country I'd rather do what I think is more dignified. I will try to help them but not become essential to the business, and leave when I can get my career back on track. They will pressure and guilt me to stay, but it's not ideal for either of us. I want to help them find someone to take it over who will be passionate about this. I will be leaving Brooklyn and a young tech company for an assembly operation with mostly 40+ aged people in a small town. I'm not looking forward to this but I don't have another option. I am new to Stoicism, I became curious about it after reading Stillness is the Key. I just started Meditations, I am looking for relatable things to my situation like Marc Aurelius's passages about the plague. Please let me know if you have any suggestions. I would be very interested in something like a great thinker or leader talking about situations like this, dealing with difficult people, negotiating, family, ect. Often with my family it can feel like the USA and the USSR in WWII. Maybe something about tense alliances? Or is political stuff too different to apply to family/business dynamics? idk. I'm not looking for self help, I'm looking for inspiring stories from interesting people. It doesn't have to be Stoicism, but it seems like this is a good place to ask because Mediations is pretty great.

Enchiridion is a quick read(and a small book) that you can carry with you wherever and refer to it as you need. The free audiobook on librivox is only like 50 minutes long too. It provides such a concise but also broad explanation on what Stoicism is, and how we can apply it to our lives.

I am about to lose my job, move in my with family, and help the family business. I am looking for books (Stoic or not) to provide wisdom on how to deal with a situation like this. I would prefer philosophy or a leader's account of how they dealt with something like this. Any suggestions?

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I recently decided to pick up reading philosophy and one of the first books I decided to read was Marcus Aurelius' *Meditations.* I found it to encapsulate so much of my pre-existing outlook on the world. As I understand it, Stoicism advocates for you to go unmoved by the actions around you, but I found that it never really indicated how you should go about responding to them. For example, there are many instances where it says to understand why someone did a wrong action, and to illuminate them of their fault, but it never indicates the real world response to such wrongdoings, and I imagine that Aurelius would not have us simply telling murderers or other serious wrongdoers to change. I guess to sum up, the book focused on showing how to best handle the self, but it does not really cover how to act socially or politically, so I was just wondering if anyone had insights or more reading recommendations that would help me better understand those aspects of Stoicism.

>The wise man, therefore, being tranquil, and dealing candidly with mistakes, **not an enemy to but an improver of sinners,** will go abroad every day in the following frame of mind: -- "Many men will meet me who are drunkards, lustful, ungrateful, greedy, and excited by the frenzy of ambition." **He will view all these as benignly as a physician does his patients.** - Seneca, *On Anger* (Emphasis mine) And >When a man's ship leaks freely through its opened seams, does he become angry with the sailors or the ship itself? **No; instead of that, he tries to remedy it:** - Seneca, *On Anger* (Emphasis mine) Finally >More evil is done than can be healed by punishment: men seem engaged in a vast race of wickedness. (Take a guess...) The "justice" system as we know it is punitive in nature, that is, punish criminals. It's not about preventing crime or changing criminals, it's institutionalized retribution. To the Stoics, the virtuous reaction was to help change behavior, mainly through teaching and example. Never through anger, and only resorting to punishment when all other options had been truly tried and failed. But I get the feeling you're looking for a bit more than that. Next time you encounter something you consider wrong, try this. First, assume all of your initial reactions are wrong. If your first reaction is "That person is racist", start by assuming that person is not. Then, Steelman the other point of view, that is, make the best case possible in your mind for why a reasonable person would say or do whatever you object to. Don't fall for the Asymmetric Understanding trap, that is, assuming that your interpretation of the other point of view is better than that of the person who holds it. Don't try to change the other person's mind- you can't. You can offer your own thoughts, though, and do so in a supportive manner. The YouTube channel Charisma On Command has a lot of videos on how to do this- it's worth watching them.

The Social Aspects of Stoicism

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Will someone explain the basics of stoicism to me like I'm 5? I'm still not quite sure what it's about.

1. There are only two types of things: Those you can control and those you cannot. If something is under your control, rather than worrying about it, fix it and stop worrying. If something is out of your control, there's nothing to be done and worrying about it is irrational. 2. Do what's right in the moment, regardless of what *might* happen down the road (which you cannot control). Treat everyone with the respect they are due as a human being. 3. Don't get angry over the stupidity and ignorance of humankind. Rather, focus on your own character. Live and lead by example. Marcus Aurelius says, "You can break your heart, but men will always continue as before." 4. Peace of mind exists right here, right now, regardless of your circumstances, if only you can master your thoughts. 5. Remember that we are living a tragedy. A wise old woman once told me, "Life is not beautiful. It's a bit difficult." Prepare yourself for the absolute worst and you will discover that actually, your worst fears are endurable. So much of what makes us suffer is our insistence on a "happily ever after" and our constant labelling of our circumstances as "good" or "bad." Let go of these illusions and so much of your suffering will fall away. \[P.S. I have mastered none of this myself.\]

Will someone explain the basics of stoicism to me like I'm 5? I'm still not quite sure what it's about.

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"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." Chapter: This is John Galt Speaking "Nobody stays here by faking reality in any manner whatever." Chapter: The Utopia of Greed "The man who had lost the capacity to feel? --thought Rearden, and knew that the austerity of the marble face was the form of a disciplined capacity to feel too deeply." Chapter: The Moratorium on Brains I was reading Atlas Shrugged the other day and it just struck me that there might be certain points that mesh in with Stoicism. If you read through the book, there are plenty of times where it seems quite evident that the Protagonists are able to an extreme feel and care very deeply about things and yet think critically and rationally about it, without letting their emotions dictate how they think or act. For those who've read the book if my observations are incorrect, would love to understand why. (Just as a note, I'm not advocating objectivism as a whole or the running narrative of Atlas Shrugged, just mentioning a few points that seem to mesh in well to me)

They overlap in terms of a strong devotion to rationalism, and a skepticism of emotions. However they differ in conclusions greatly. Stoicism focuses on the social nature of humans while objectivism has been critiqued as being overly selfish and individual. The ideal stoic would be some kind of public servant who never is tempted by corruption and lives a humble life. The ideal objectivist would be some kind of business entrepreneur. The stoic says the only purpose in life is moral freedom and to pursue your nature as a social creature, while the objectivist says the only purpose is to pursue personal happiness. Though they may sound similar and would overlap someonewhat, the stoic would be fine engaging in behavior that might be detrimental for their own personal happiness if it achieves a nobel goal for the rest of society.

Objectivism and Stoicism?

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I started reading posts from this page (I don't know what the correct term to refer to this 'page' is; I think it's called a 'sub-reddit' but I'm not sure. I'm very new to using Reddit) and I read the stories of people who find themselves happier having practised the principles of Stoicism. I read those posts and answers and I think to myself "This is actually what you've been looking for all your life" and almost immediately, the next thought in my head is something negative either about the person who wrote the post or a response to a someone's question. For example, if someone says that they applied a particular Stoic principle to a relationship and they were able to resolve the dispute having applied said principle and that they're happy now, my mind would have me think things like "They just think they've solved the problem. They think it's a permanent fix but it's temporary. And even they don't believe in the principle. They just think that they believe in it. It's never going to work." Or if someone says that they've been eating better and exercising because of the belief that not wanting to do is an internal factor and thus in our control (which is true and I believe in), my first thought after thinking that I can amend my thoughts too is "LOL. It's never going to work for them. It's going to last a couple of weeks and that's it. They'll give up too. But of course, they won't talk about it here. Don't believe what they wrote in a moment of euphoria". My mind, thus, is fighting really hard, I think, to stop me from bettering myself. If anyone has any insight on this in terms of their own personal experience and how they overcame it or in general too, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Stoicism is not a panacea or a magic bullet to solve all your problems. But it's helped me for more than a decade. Stoicism is rational. You should indeed be skeptical of it. For one thing, there is also selection bias. Even if everyone on the subreddit says it's great, that's only a sample of people hanging around on a subreddit, there might be vastly more people who tried it and abandoned it. If you want to try it, set yourself a reasonable time to try it for, and evaluate it in particular after that time. For instance, you could keep a journal of your emotional state for a month, try practicing stoicism for a month, and at the end review the journal to see if it has improved your life. If it hasn't, post a warning here for others and move on with your life.

Negativity while Going Through this Page

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For some context, I learnt about Stoicism a while ago, after watching a Ryan Holiday video. So, I downloaded an app on my phone called "Stoico". After procrastinating on it for sooo long, I finally started reading it, but the problem I came across is the english. The old english is written in a way, that I lose my way through it, and sometimes even re-reading doesn't help. Reading "Meditations - Marcus Aurelies" right now, so I wanted to know of any sources with simpler english.

Einzelganger on YouTube - this channel got me interested in stoicism and has taught me so strategies for employing stoicism into my everyday life.

Good places to start learning about Stoicism easily

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I have been practising Stoicism for almost the entire month now, I stumbled upon it in a moment of darkness and it helped me with a very difficult faucet of life. A few months ago I confessed my feelings towards my best friend of many years, of course the feelings were not reciprocated so I took the answer as a chance to work on myself despite being deeply hurt by it but I never really let these emotions control me. After about a month we re-connected and things were good but the feelings were unfortunately still there, I by all means want to maintain the friendship and remain friends however its become increasingly difficult to control my emotions towards this person and accepting things they way they are especially since we spend a lot of time together in a friend group. I know I must accept things the way they are, I know I have to be rational and realistic about it. Had it not been for this painful rejection I may never have discovered stoicism as a whole or at least taken part in it. Yet I can't help but feel hurt by how things played out, we were once so close and reliant on one another and these days it feels like we are barely on the same level, without a doubt the situation has put us in a position where we are both somewhat close but distant from one another. I know I shouldn't rely on another person for happiness but it's difficult to cope with when two people who were once crucial parts of each others lives slowly drift away. I know that people come and go but it really just eats away at me and I am not sure how I should proceed. Is anyone here able to offer some insight from a stoic perspective or offer any advice/practice that could benefit me in this situation?

Thank you for your post. Firstly, you seem young. Congratulations on your introspection skills and willingness to questions your own attitude. In what way have you been 'practising Stoicism' over the past month, if I may ask? What do you even think Stoicism is? >Is anyone here able to offer some insight from a stoic perspective or offer any advice/practice that could benefit me in this situation? This philosophy does not propose specific choices or rules to follow. Therefore, I cannot give you advice on *what* to do in your (or any) situation. However, the ancient Stoics had a lot to say about emotions, choices, way of life and the value of life. The Stoic perspective/way of life might help people feel calm or even joyful and be able to accept the way things are, but that is only a side-effect. Which answer do you seek? How to be able to cope in this situation, where your passionate feelings can be burdensome? Or would you like to consider your options, e.g. keep seeing your friend or not? Now to answer your question and give you some food for thought. Some people might think this is harsh, but I do not at all. * Dichotomy of control. We can only 'control' our present choice: our present thought/judgement/intent/choice is attributable to us and everything else (also) depends on external factors. The realisation what we can and cannot control might help us accept what we cannot and help us focus our effort on what we *can* influence*.* * That being said. Can you control the feelings of others? Can you control other people's choices? Can you control how others feel about you? Even if you could, would you even desire that power?;) * We can learn, grow and mature through adversity. Things not going our way can help us become wiser people. It might help us understand the nature of the world better; help us understand the 'plight' of other people (and so develop 'sympathy'/'empathy'/'understanding'/'wisdom'). As such, 'external misfortune' is not deemed as genuine misfortune in general, partly because it is a learning opportunity. * ***(Not Stoicism) Specifically, 'unrequited love' is often the stuff of stories. I do not wish to tell you how to feel/think, but what do you think of the fact that you are increasing your experience in life to that 'worthy of story'? It is part of the 'genuine', 'authentic' human experience, no? Would you rather live a life that includes both its 'ups and downs' or one that is 'flat' and 'uninteresting'?*** * 'Virtue is the sole good'. This is the core Stoic idea. Technically, an ideal Stoic ultimately cares about his character: the pursuit of a beautiful character drives the Stoic. External matters cannot hinder or help the ideal Stoic in being virtuous. As such, relationship problems provide opportunity to try and be the best person one can be, as does every other situation. * As a suggestion (take this with a grain of salt): if it is relevant, try not to act on feelings of frustration or resentment. A 'good person' might try to be a 'good friend'. You cannot control what others do, but you can influence your own behaviour. Can this situation hinder you in trying to be a 'good friend' or a 'good person' in general? No need to talk yourself down:) What do you think? Best wishes:)

How do I move past from this?

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I know that money is neither good nor bad from the stoic perspective. But trying to study for a well paying job for the sake of money and luxuries? I have no idea what stoicism says about that. I want to study to become a psychotherapist because I like helping people and listening to their problems. But I could help people in many other jobs as well, but I chose theraphy in particular because it pays reeaaally well. I also chose that field because that money allows me to learn to invest and make even more money (I kinda see it as a game to be honest). Also, having a fancy car with massaging seats, head up displays etc. would be pretty fun. But most importantly, I know that money doesn't make me happy, but I can be happy by accepting reality as is and by being virtuous. But I do like feeling good and money certainly has the power to make me feel good. Money also gives me time that I can spend on further improving myself. What are your thoughts on this? I really don't know if this is good or bad.

Does it pay that well? I'm in psychology myself, the road to a psychotherapist is a long one and not very glamorous

Is it necessarily bad to actively chase money for hedonistic pleasures?

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I don't really know a ton about what stoicism really is but I do know that a pretty big pillar of the philosophy is building discipline and self-control. I've done no fap on and off for the last year or so and (at least for me) it's been a huge test of self-control and I've built discipline because of it. So do any of you take NNN seriously at all? Most people take is as just a meme but I just wonder if you guys might take it a little more seriously.

If you're doing *anything* to such an excess that you feel you need to have an entire month dedicated to *not* doing that thing ... that seems a bit outside of the stoic field guide.

What are your thoughts on No Nut November?

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Prior to discovering and practicing Stoicism, I used to be a very emotional guy to the point where I would freely let any emotion consume me freely. Since then I've learned to control my feelings and put my head before my heart in most cases where I needed to. After online graduation was over though, I didn't feel much sadness or longing unlike my classmates and friends who were very open about their emotions and how they miss each other. I didn't feel even a fraction of sadness though, which got me a bit worried. Sure, it was a big step in my life, and I was moving to a college where most of my friends wouldn't be going to, but it didn't feel like it was something to get emotional over. Because of this, I felt alienated when it came to 'saying goodbyes' or posting past pictures. Overall, I don't feel sad at all, just a little worried that I might have missed out with key interactions with friends because I managed to brush it off so easily, maybe *too* easily. It's also not like I didn't have a large enough friend group to care about, since I was pretty close to more than half of my whole batch. Should a stoic be able to 'turn off' their philosophy and learn to empathize more with friends, even if they don't at all feel the same way? Or should I just let it be and mind my own business?

I think it's perfectly fine to not feel anything, I didn't either. High school is such a small portion of your life, when I graduated I was excited to see what was to come. I was happy, I felt like life as an adult was slowly starting. I still feel this way 2 years later, still excited to see what life will throw at me.

Not feeling sad over graduation. Should I?

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I was wondering where stoicism stands on issues of globalisation and nationalism. How is the stoic concept of cosmopolitanism similar to or different from globalisation? With the direction where the world is heading now (age of technology and information, liberalized politics), where does a modern day Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and other great Stoic teachers stand in the globalisation-nationalism spectrum. If you have time to explain, I'd love to know your understanding about the stoic cosmopolitanism, and some bonus insights about globalisation would be nice too. - A philosophy beginner (So I am not really sure if my questions are valid)

You'll get different answers to this, because folks here hold different opinions about how to interpret the underlying ideas. I'll share how I see it, but I think the other views are just as valid, too. The ancient Stoics understood humans to be social animals, like bees. Most of us could not survive for long if we were fully isolated from others, and those that who could would be denied the ability to develop and experience some of their core qualities as human beings. To love, to be loved, to work together is our nature, it's how we thrive and survive and it's what we are made for. If we are made to be sociable, to get along, to inter-depend, and if our physical survival depends upon the survival of the group as a whole, then both reason and human nature strongly recommend being a good member of the group, and caring about the welfare of the group. It's not a duty that obligates us, it's just the sensible reality of what sort of creatures we are. Taking this a step further, if we recognize this as a human quality, rather than, say, as a Greek quality or a Roman quality, then it makes sense that these same concerns would cross tribal and national lines. We are, fundamentally, human first, citizens of the world, of the human race. Discord between groups is as irrational as discord within groups. This makes great sense as theory, but it does face the complication of the rather brutal realities of conflict that were an everyday feature of the ancient world. Socrates himself was a soldier, and Marcus spent most of his reign leading armies in the field. Seneca lived among the knives that played in the shadows of the political world, eventually dying on his own. Epictetus was first a slave, and then an exile. There was a big difference between the utopia that society could eventually become, and the realities of what it then was. (I'll add the the Stoic conception of nature often refers to the ultimate form of a thing, rather than its current form. The nature of an acorn is an oak tree, the nature of a puppy is a dog. The nature of a society is utopia. When we talk about 'nature' in this context, it's important to keep that aspect of it in mind). The Stoics also understood that the external expression of virtue will change from time to time and place to place; a virtuous Syrian will follow different rules in the conduct of his life than a virtuous Egyptian or a virtuous Persian. Local culture and custom, as well as individual nature, allow for such differences. This is why we can look back now on their slave-holding and see that this was not a hypocrisy, just a difference. No one culture, theirs or ours, gets the final say in the outward conduct of life. This is another key element of the cosmopolitan ideal. As for nationalism, sometimes we fight with one another, and sometimes it is proper and necessary to do so. In a more perfect world, where we all shared the same core understanding of things, it would be different, and perhaps it is meant to be different, and perhaps it is our nature to grow into this ideal. But in the meantime, we follow in what life demands of us. I'm not sure what, exactly, you mean by globalism.

Stoicism and Cosmopolitanism on Globalisation

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I have been practicing stoicism for about a year now, and I have been wondering what is the stoics stance on modesty? When is a good time to accept others kindness vs being modest? Should we be quick to accept anothers kindness, or hold back?

Every help come with cost. Not financial, usually, but if you get favor, you "owe" a favor. Normally, the closer are friends, les precise is this favor counting. Still, some reciprocity is needed for balanced relationship. In moderation this is natural way how to create friends. But if you are too eager to receive help, you may end tangled with people you not really want to.

Trouble accepting help, kindness from others

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Hello fellow stoics! Been interested in stoicism on and off the past year now and have a question for the more experienced stoics. As a recent graduate, I've been feeling extremely lost and unmotivated about life in terms of the job I want to do and the direction I want my life to go in which has led me to think such negative thoughts that have been festering for the past year to the point that I just can't seem to not be negative about life. I'm stuck in a job that I don't want to do and I have no social life, the only good thing in my life is my girlfriend. I guess my question is has anyone been through a similar situation and has stoicism helped them get through the rut in life? Is there any particular quotes that have resonated with you in these dark times? Thanks in advance for any replies

Life is a struggle my friend. I'd say every person in this room has hit this same spot where you are at some point. Especially those first few post university years where you are still figuring things out. You feel rudderless and tossed about by the winds and sea. So how do you fix it? Here is what I would suggest: **1: Consciously work on changing your attitude.** One of the basic pillars of Stoicism is learning what [you can and cannot control.](https://dailystoic.com/control-and-choice/) (Check the link for a good article on this) *The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but within myself to the choices that are my own . . .* --[Epictetus](http://dailystoic.com/Epictetus), *Discourses*, 2.5.4-5 Clearly, there are a lot of external forces in your life and not all of them are acting in your favor. So you need to ask yourself the question and I would advise doing a journal entry of this reflection; "What can I truly control?" Once you've answered this work on the things you can control. (i.e. your attitude) You may not be able to control certain things about your job but you can control how you react to them. [I love Jocko Willink's G.O.O.D. philosophy.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTMDpizis8) No matter what bad things happen in life, there is always good to be found in it if you look. Change your attitude first and other things will follow. **2. Workplace Chess** A career is a chess game. Moves, counter moves and time. It's extremely rare to walk out of uni into the job you want. That's reality. Everyone starts at the bottom and work their way up. If you are in a job in the industry you want to be in and this job is a step in that direction then you are where you need to be. So what do you do here? Master the job you have. Excel at it. Become an authority on what you do. When you are the guy that people can come to for answers and to get things done people notice and supervisors will say if he can do that here I bet he could do that in X position where we need help. This will not happen overnight. But if you put in the work it will come back to you. If you are not in a job that gets you towards where you want to be, then find a job that is. If you do have to switch jobs you will probably have to give up some things. You might have to move to somewhere more conducive to what you want to do. You might take a bit of a pay cut or have to work more hours, etc. If you truly want the job you say you do then you will have to be willing to sacrifice to get it. Once you get that job, then see above with what to do when you get there. **3. General tips** I'm not going to lie, this is going to be tough. But, it's a fight worth fighting. *Life is hard, get a helmet* a friend of mine used to say. While humorous it is true. In your off time study stoicism to help maintain a center balance and keep your attitude in check. Do reflections, journal and most importantly, keep your eye on the goal. On days you don't feel like getting up because you just can't do it, remember Marcus who had to remind himself; *At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: "I have to go to work -- as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I'm going to do what I was born for -- the things I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under the blankets and stay warm?"* *So you were born to feel "nice"? Instead of doing things and experiencing them? Don't you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going about their individual tasks, putting the world in order, as best they can? And you're not willing to do your job as a human being? Why aren't you running to do what your nature demands?* *You don't love yourself enough. Or you'd love your nature too, and what it demands of you...* --Marcus Aurelius, Meditations Book 5:1-2 If you know when you go into work your going to have to deal with difficult people Marcus has a good one for that too: *When you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly. They are like this because they can't tell good from evil. But I have seen the beauty of good, and the ugliness of evil, and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own - not of the same blood and birth, but the same mind, and possessing a share of the divine. And so none of them can hurt me. No one can implicate me in ugliness. Nor can I feel angry at my relative, or hate him. We were born to work together like feet, hands and eyes, like the two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him: these are unnatural.* --Marcus Aurelius, Meditations Book 2:1 These are but a few Stoic nuggets to help you on your way. There are many, many more. Study Stoicism, keep your attitude in check, keep your eyes on the prize and put in the work. Don't long for the "better days ahead". Make these days your best days. I hope all this helps you. You are welcome to PM me if you feel I can assist you further.

Feeling lost, useless and unmotivated in life

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Stoicism often gives this "yeah, life's hard, get over it" vibe. My friend had her drivers license test and she was soo stressed about it. All of her friends just told her that it'll go great, there's nothing to stress about etc. But I don't think it was helpful. So I told her that it will probably be unpleasant, but it will go fine if she practises beforehand ("all you can do is practise, the rest is not worth being stressed about") etc. I hate sugar coating reality so I often sound pretty cold, but my advice is usually the one that actually provides something. Is there like a middle ground where I could stay realistic, but also to keep that "life's hard, get over it" vibe away?

> Is there like a middle ground where I could stay realistic, but also to keep that "life's hard, get over it" vibe away? Perhaps you can temper it to more of an "it's OK, it's just life" vibe. After all, in the Stoic view, life isn't hard - it's only hard if we believe it to be hard. A driver's test is, in reality, no different that brushing our teeth in the morning. It's a thing that's proper for us to do at that moment, a sequence of actions, and what happens happens. It's less of a suck-it-up vibe, and more of an it's-OK vibe.

How could I help my friends with stoicism without feeling cold?

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As I learn more and more about stoicism, I believe that I have been following this philosophy for the greater part of my life and even as a kid. I am a big picture guy. I have never thought any one event is greatly important in the grand scheme of things even if others around find it Earth shattering.(ie: death in the family, politics, etc) Anyway, to the root of this post, what is the core literature I should read to expand my understanding of this philosophy?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/faq#wiki_what_are_some_recommended_starting_points_for_newcomers_to_stoicism.3F Suggested Readings

Long time practitioner, new follower

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Noob here. Penpal is into stoicism so I thought I'd check it out. How does a stoic deal with PTSD? A lot of PTSD is avoidance of panic and anxiety due to X. PTSD often leads to agoraphobia or a limited life. Most therapy is about re-experiencing the trauma or the places that cause panic and anxiety. There's a push from society toward the person with PTSD to get better. To try to improve. To not give up. Not everyone can get better. Let's assume the person with PTSD has talked to their deathbed self and deathbed self reminds the person that s/he tried for decades to get better. Questions: 1. Would the stoic "give up" and simply say this is my life and I accept it as it is. I will try to find the joy in the things that I can. 2. Would the stoic re-experience trauma to learn how to stoically react to it? 3. Both? I ask this because PTSD is quite different than the usual vagaries of life. The brain has been rewired. Stoicism (like cognitive behavioral therapy) seems to aim to rewire the brain in a way, rewire the response. But generally, that response is to an outside force -- a person reacting to a death of another, a flat tire, or even cancer. With PTSD it's brain vs brain. Hope this makes sense. Hope this isn't a stupid question.

Welcome, and it's a great question. Here's my favorite paragraph from [our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/faq): >Stoicism is a philosophy of life, a practical guide to applying wisdom to your daily choices, focused on living life as a thriving rational being, characterized by excellence in judgement and the fulfilled happiness that is to the mind what robust healthy fitness is to the body. **Stoics believe that, just as physical pain is caused by illness and injury to the body, human distress is caused (at least in part, and according to orthodox Stoicism, entirely) by mistaken judgments and incorrect beliefs, particularly about good and bad.** To completely correct these judgements and correct these beliefs is a difficult task, perhaps effectively impossible, but Stoic study, practice, and exercises aim at least to improve those of the Stoics who practice them. False judgements are the enemy here. With that in mind, there are a class of beliefs which are perfectly true, for just as long as they are believed. "I'm terrible at learning new languages". "I could never eat sushi". So long as we hold these beliefs, they are true beliefs, genuine and real. Everything we experience will only confirm their truthfulness. And the moment we stop believing them, they cease to to be true. If you believe you can't get better, that's as true as god's own word, and you can take it to the bank. And everything you've read, everything you know, and every minute of your experience will genuinely confirm that. It's not like you are deluding yourself or anything. It's true! It really is. So, in the Stoic view, that's the chain that's holding you. If you fully believe that further recovery is impossible, then further recovery is impossible. If there's a part of you that maybe things a little recovery can happen, and that it would be nice? That's awesome. Roll with that and see. The FAQ is a good place to start, and there's a huge list of suggested readings for new folks at the bottom.

PTSD and stoicism

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I just found out that I had podcast on Apple so I searched for stoicism and was very overwhelmed with all the different podcasts! Thanks!

Not specifically about Stoicism, but Jocko Podcast applies a lot of stoic principles.

There are a bunch of podcasts about stoicism on Apple Podcast. Which one would you recommend for a person new to the philosophy? Doesn't have to be on Apple either.

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I'm kind of annoyed by the total number of people coming up to me to complain about their general problems. One of my friends, constantly complains about her work and when I suggest changes or even as stoicism suggests, change her mindset or environment (she has that ability to switch jobs) she says she has considered that and even plans to do that *in the future*, but ultimately rejects it. But even when I share with her methods to calm her anxiety, she supersedes it by saying she is that way, and she knows what to do, but her anxiety overtakes it and overall, doesn't want to change. The aftermath of it is I see her take it out on other people like servers and waiters in restaurants when we meet up. The thing is that she was very passive aggressive before and now she is "standing up" for herself in work and outside. In the past few months we've met, I'm getting more and more turned off to the point that I'd rather not talk to her. However, we've been friends for more than 10 years, so as difficult as it is, I've been initially considering less contact. But that seems a little harsh as I understand that sometimes people need to vent and that has always been our way (even me back then), but I've found out different ways to manage my stress without resorting to complaining to others but more of how I approach the situation. Any advice is much appreciated! Thanks for reading!

You cannot control whether or not people complain. People, without exception, complain. Life is willing and suffering, we suffer and we complain about it. I do it, your friend does it, you're doing it here. If it's getting to the point where you dont even want to talk with her, then you need to do one of two things. One is to cut her out. If she contacts you, be polite, otherwise, you dont contact her. Things dissolve and fade away. Seems easy now but might be complicated in the long run. Loose ends often annoy. They may try to come back into your life, or you may come to regret cutting things off. It often feels a little shady. The other option is to basically tell her what's in this post. Anchor the conversation in your interest in her well-being, point out the poor behavior towards servers and waiters etc. that bothers you, make it clear that you're worried about her and want to help. Be honest. This is hard to do in the moment, but it will not leave any loose ends. If your friend is really your friend, or if you really do need to get away from her, will become clear through direct confrontation like this.

How do you handle complaining from others? (Aka friends)

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What does it mean to be a good citizen in 2020? You almost never hear the word citizen used today, yet it is what binds us all together. How is it that we all value stoicism so much yet it seems most posts are about using stoicism internally rather than about being a good citizen externally?

It's kinda hard to approach the subject without participating in the political polarization that pervades social discourse. A few wrong moves and it can derail into a shitstorm. However I can safely assume most people identifying as stoics have concerns with their social sphere and do what they can to participate in it, be they conservatives or liberals or independents. They just wouldn't be too vocal about it for the first reasons I mentioned.

What does it mean to be a good citizen in 2020? You almost never hear the word citizen used today, yet it is what binds us all together. How is it that we all value stoicism so much yet it seems most posts are about using stoicism internally rather than about being a good citizen externally?

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Hi, I would expect that most of us are familiar with Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Here is a nice article if not: [http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html](http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html) The pyramid suggests that we have basic needs of food, water, and security and then psychological needs for belongingness and esteem. Maslow categorized these needs as "D-Needs". If we didn't have these things, we would feel their deficiency. The apex and fifth layer of the traditional pyramid says that after our D-Needs are mostly satisfied, then we strive for self-actualization. Once you start to "feed" self-actualization, once you start to realize it, then the more that you crave it. The idea of self-actualization is that, "What a man can be, he must be." In my view, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is directionally accurate. Meaning, he's mostly right. That's mostly the order that most people experience life, making exceptions that people in their individual life's can jump around the layers to an extent. Which then leads to Stoicism. Stoicism is appealing because it provides a logical framework to address life. I am going to extremely simplify it. 1. What is your ultimate purpose? Harmony with nature, pursuit of virtue/excellence/arete, etc. 2. Is your passion or desire in line with your purpose? We exercise control of our passions. 3. Are your thoughts, beliefs, and value judgments virtuous or vicious? You apply this framework systematically across your life, meditating on what is virtuous and motivating yourself towards virtuous action. How can I be a better husband, father, co worker, and citizen of the cosmos? While in theory your action towards being a better citizen of the cosmos may lead to self-actualization, I am not sure that Stoicism really embraces that concept. In other words, Stoicism is about being content with regards to your "D-Needs", as Maslow says, but not specifically about self-actualization. What about those passions that lead to self-actualization that are virtuous but out of your control? True entrepreneurs have a driving passion to create a business despite many of the factors for success being almost completely out of their control. People have a drive to lead, manage and coach others, not out of a sense of ego or pride, but because they truly have that "calling" within themselves to help better other people. People have "callings" towards serving country or being a police officer. Are these passions that should be controlled? Are these not healthy drives towards self-actualization? Has anyone found a combination of Stoicism to satisfy your "D-Needs" and something else to help define our need for self-actualization? Or how has Stoicism helped you self-actualize? I appreciate your thoughts.

You define self-actualization as " What a man can be, he must be. " The stoic says that what a man can be is a rationally thinking agent. He must not be this necessarily because he has been given a choice. If a man chooses to live his life as a rationally thinking agent this would be self-actualization for the stoic. You ask about those passions that lead to self-actualization. The stoics have a very specific definition for passion. Passion is those emotions that hinder us from thinking rationally. So according to the stoics Passions do not lead to "self-actualization" but would actually lead away from it. You describe a true entrepreneur as someone who is living without eudimonia. A stoic entrepreneur can have the same success and failure as your true entrepreneur but they're happiness, flourishing, well-being, would be the result of living a virtuous life, ie a life of rational thinking, and not dependent on their success or failure in their business.

Is there another piece to the equation? Stoicism doesn't seem to lead to self-actualization.

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I have been trying to self improve and read up on stoicism for the last past 3 months. Im at the moment in a college education im super unsure about but i still try to do every assignment to the best of my abilites i dont want to just give up that is not a good habit to have i will try my best its all i can do. Anyway at this moment i am having the hardest written assignment i have ever done i have spent so much time and energy on this and today we compared our text with other students i hate that shitt i dont like comparing myself to others its not very stoic to do that. And yes my text was not very good and that makes me feel like a failure like i tried so hard but still its not enough how should i think at this moment is it even okay to fail? I have never ever been good at written exams but i still try my best. The problem is not writting its the specific system you have to write in and to be honest i suck at this i cant stand it i almost feel like it hinders creativity but to be honest that is university 101 hinder creativity and self growth just study for this piece of papper that said you studied i dont enjoy this system at all! And i know at this moment i dont sound very stoic but a transformation takes time and at this moment i just feel really angry and exhausted.

There are only two kinds of problems in this world; practical problems (passing a test which you find hard to do) and emotional problems (feeling angry and irritated). The emotional problem is always self-inflicted and will hinder you in solving the practical problem; it eclipses your reasoning skills and steals a lot of energy from you (you mention feeling exhausted). The only way to solve them is to find out what thoughts are causing the emotions, and to see if the underlying (often unconscious) beliefs are true or reasonable. You mention trying very hard but the result not being what you want. I think consciously you understand that the outcome is not under your control, only your intentions are. Arguing with reality is therefore never reasonable, it is at the root of all our emotional problems. To harden this side of the argument; outcome is also not what we value when we look at other people, we admire someone for trying, not for succeeding; like Cato for trying to preserve the Republic, if someone else succeeded in preserving the Republic by accident (without intentions) we wouldn't admire him. In addition, you mention having problems with the school system, which is a practical problem, but will also hinder you when you make it an emotional problem. You may decide to discontinue your study, but do so clear-headed, for the right reasons and be honest to yourself and others. I wish you well :) Some guy on the internet

What does Stoicism say about trying your absolutely best but still failing?

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I'm looking to learn more about stoicism and I've heard that Meditations is quite a prominent book in this school of thought. However, I have no idea which translation to buy. If anyone could guide me in the right direction then that would be brilliant. Thanks in advance.

https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Marcus-Aurelius/dp/0812968255 This is the one I own, it was recommended as a very good translation. It's actually in modern English. Effortless to understand.

What is the best English translation for Meditations by Marcus Aurelius?

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Lately, I really feel like I'm getting grayed into my everyday life. I do my usual things (work, work out, housework, having fun with friends when we all have free time, I even tried out yoga recently). But the whole thing is starting to converge a lot and I feel like things aren't going anywhere. And I'm starting to feel very apathetic. I'll get my tasks done and the week will start again. I am starting to lose interest in almost everything and I feel that as these gray weeks go by, nihilism and apathy swallow me. A little more insight into my life. I am a 24-year-old man and I live in a small town in the southern part of Hungary (Central Europe). I have a lot of friends, but many of them have moved far away from me, mainly to Budapest (our capital city). I don't keep in touch with my local friends anymore because we had a harsher argument and the atmosphere between us has been quite tense ever since. Luckily, I can go have fun with my former college friends. Getting new friends is quite hard for me because I'm really introverted, although my friends like me a lot for my wholesome and caring personality. I work for an NGO where we help poor people and minorities. Unfortunately, our leadership can be quite corrupt sometimes and they are more interested in money than helping the poor and those who really need support (I never liked that). A half year went by when i was hired after my graduation from university. I have been working for this NGO for a year today. I earn relatively well in our region and my job provides financial support to get a car and a driving license which a lot of people envy here. Even if I'm not rich or famous, I've never cared about these things. I still consider myself lucky. My relationships were often quite unbalanced. I am currently flirting with one of my new colleagues (she's just got hired about a month ago). I have to say that this relationship is also quite unbalanced and I don't think any of us think this too seriously (at least in this early stage of our relationship), plus we're very different. I like the chick, but I wouldn't care if she hook up with someone else, because I think I have quite a few options for women, even if I can be very shy. As I am an introvert, it's easy to say that dating has never gone too well for me. Overall, I feel very emotionless. And compared to how ambitious I used to be, I now feel many times that nothing makes any sense. For example, why should I do good things for society, for my community when many people are exploiting people and they will have no problem with it. I used to say that life has no universal, exact meaning, and we choose our lives meaning. But now I just don't feel like my life (or anyone else's life) has any meaning at all. Or if there is, then I don't know what it is. I got lost somewhere on my chosen path and now I don't know where I am and where I should go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not depressed, I don't want to end my life, I just curious what you as outsiders think of my life, in a stoic way of course. I think that in such a subreddit as this, where there are so many diverse people of common interest, I can certainly have interesting conversations, or maybe even get some directions on my way. Stoicism is a very helpful way of thinking which helped me through my life quite sometimes. TLDR: What do you think about apathy and what do you advise to people who feel the emptiness in themselves.

You may need some goals and hobbies man. New experiences in general.

What o you think about apathy and emptiness? Whats your advise?

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Hi I have a question What does stocism say about selflessness? Sacrificing yourself for the good of others was something I did a lot last year and it got me into a depressive state. I felt like my purpose was the help people no matter what. So this year I started taking more care of myself and focused more on myself and Ive been happier. Soon after all that I found stoicism (I'm new to this stuff so please bare with me) and its still unclear to me wether to be more selfless or more selfish in stoicism. I will hear that stoics focus on themselves, but also they help the community. Any answer will be appreciated.

People who "sacrifice" until they're depressed are rarely being truly "selfless". Mindlessly giving more and more of yourself until there's nothing less is usually indicative of some form of co-dependency, and whilst this may *look* like selflessness it's really driven from a much more selfish place. The reason such "selflessness" tends to terminate in depression is because the person giving themselves is really looking for some kind of external validation, or at least some external *something* in other people, and because this is not possible and positive mental states can only come from within, their approach eventually collapses and if they don't say "perhaps my approach was wrong" they rapidly fall into a depression, for the only approach they care to adopt has failed to make them happy.

Selflessness in stoicism

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I've been practicing Stoicism for a few months now. And studying the philosophy. I've made I'd think good progress on negative visualisation and view from above exercises. I've been failing a lot too tho, giving in to rushes of passions a lot as the most important one but it's a slow work and I'm very slowly improving. My problem really is with accepting the very real possibility / reality? that I might remain alone forever. I know that not everyone finds a romantic partner. I know some do and it's not timeless. But it's seems I just won't. It's not within my control, I am trying to focus on what's within my control, but I don't control the results. I mean meditating on my own death is easier than meditating on remaining alone. I also feel like the more aware I am of the reality that life could end anytime and it will inevitably sometime makes my struggling with being alone worse because I realize, I don't have an eternity to figure out if I can do something about, if there is something I can and should fix. It makes me realise time is running and chances are decreasing. Sharing life with a romantic partner feels to me as one of the most fundamental and natural aspect of our species. Of what we are and yet it seems I'm barred from participating. (Maybe I should add there is no obvious reason as to why that would be the case, at least that I'm aware.. ) It doesn't help that of course being barred from this also makes unable to participate in another of our species most fundamental activity, having children and parenting. This is something I've struggled with a lot when I was 19/20 it was a bit better then, but it's back now (I'm 26) and it seems the years go by and yet alone I remain, and the possibility of that changing reduces... I'd be grateful for any insight that might help me point towards a way to not let that affect me so much anymore. Any exercise or readings recommendation is welcome too. I thank you for reading until here and am grateful for any help. Please be forgiving with any mistakes, I'm not a native English speaker.

Reading through your question, you seem to be resigned to the fact you will be romantically alone forever rather than considering it as just ONE of the possible outcomes of your life. I would suggest you refrain from practising premeditatio malorum as it might lead you to obsess over your situation instead of solving it: premeditatio malorum is a somewhat "advanced technique" that requires a lot of emotional distancing, which is something very difficult to achieve in general and especially when you have just started practising Stoicism. Instead, try the "view from above" exercise which can give you a better prospective of what you are dealing with and helps you realize what may be lying behind your thoughts. Remember that a romantic relationship is a very preferred indifferent, but an indifferent nevertheless. However, don't try to use Stoicism to suppress your emotions, but rather use it to deal with them. Don't think there are no other possibilities for you other than being alone: actually, there is a WIDE spectrum of possibilities to explore out there, but if you run away you will never seize them. Being a Stoic means being courageous, rational and responsible in your own life while preventing fear from taking control of your mind.

Accepting being alone romantically possibly forever.

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I am a seventeen year old male, i recently stumbled upon a video on youtube about stoicism. Learning about the overview of stoicism, I am now interested to go deeper. So what books would you recommend to someone who is new to stoicism?

Check out the FAQ here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/faq

What books about stoicism should I start with?

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Hey I'm a high school senior and I've indulged and fully point stoicism towards my life. I've gotten calmer about situations and realized that life is a blessing itself. I love living in the moment everyday. However I want to become even greater and use my new gained philosophy to set a good foundation for a career in software engineering and fully living a blessed life financially , mentally and spiritually? What can I do now to make sure I will be great in the future?

This guy nailed it. Just prepare yourself for lots of growth.

How can I be a better individual all around and prepare myself for life?

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Hello Stoics and those interested in Stoicism, I am a Year 12 student currently doing an essay on Stoicism in regards to victimhood. Does anyone have anything they wish to add or comment about on this topic that they believe would be useful for my assignment? Some of these things could include comments on what they believe certain philosopher's views would be on victimhood from the POV of a Stoic or how they should handle things such as sexual assault. Should they play the victim or should they just move on and forget about it? Is there any point in playing the victim? Anything helps! Even your own views on the topic will be interesting. Thanks! A senior studying Stoicism

Stoics are all about keeping their beliefs in line with reality, and dealing with that reality as their best selves. Part of that reality, for a Stoic, is that nobody can injure our core selves. Our bodies can be harmed, but our inner selves belong to us. We are only injured if we believe we are injured.

Stoicism and Victimhood

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More of a meta commentary ig In my time exploring stoicism, I find that a lot of stoic values also line up with masculine values. I'm curious as to if this effects who does and doesn't follow stoicism. It also seems to me that in the past, and possibly present stoicism has had more of an effect of men as well. What I'm curious about is if this is still true today? Are there a disproportionate amount of male stoics to female stoics? And if so is that ok? Or probably better put, if there is a disproportionate amount then what can we do to make communities such as this one more appealing to women if we should at all? Looking forward to responses

When asked about modern people who seem to embody the characteristics of Stoicism, my go-to answer is Mr Rogers, or at least the public persona of Mr Rogers. He does not seem terribly masculine, but he is unflappable, unfailingly reasonable, nonjudgmental, genuine, openhearted, and virtuous in every respect. It's easy for me to imagine even a very feminine person embodying these same traits. The mods did a user survey a while back, and something like 10% of our subscribers self-reported as female. I think this is because most people simply don't know what Stoicism is all about, and the most commonly-held misconceptions of Stoicism cast it in a masculine light. It's only natural that it would seem more attractive to curious men.

Stoicism and Masculinity

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I discovered stoicism through ryan holidays. But stoicism taught me to question your reasoning, wich means I can't just take ryan holidays as my only source of info. He is really a great person and one of the best modern day writer. But I feel like even him is not the perfect stoic Idol I need to know where you get your information? Any other writers you know? What I like about ryan is the daily stoic emails and podcasts he send to the people for free ( pay extra if you want more ) I thank him for introducing the basics of stoicism now I am ready to go more in details!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/faq#wiki_what_are_some_recommended_starting_points_for_newcomers_to_stoicism.3F

Your daily dose of stoicism

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we know that wars in ancient Rome weren't a rare thing at all, and even Marcus Aurelius conducted wars, but Stoicism says that people have the same minds, they are like eyes, feet and hands, working against each other is unnatural. what do you tgink about it? I'm not only talking about ancient wars, rather wars as a concept.

take middle asia for example, they do not share stoic ideas, and often are prone to wars to show their value. a Stoic country still would have to join that war because if it doesn't it will lose its territories and economy, even if that goes against stoicism itself, it's like there is a danger and we must survive, often going past our values, for example, in modern day society, killing is a crime, but not in war time, it's like they don't consider a man a man anymore, but that man has been killed anyways, could it be me or a soldier. that's what I was trying to bring up in the post.

Stoicism and war

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Like back when I was a Christian, I would use [openbible.info](https://openbible.info) to look up what the Bible says about certain things. It works by the user simply typing in a topic and it will bring up relevant Bible quotes to it. Is there a similar resource available for Stoicism, like a website in which you can type in topics and find quotes about them from the Enchiridion or the Meditations or the writings of Seneca for example?

I use this site frequently when I want to look something in the Stoic sources: https://www.stoictherapy.com/elibrary It doesn't have that kind of search engine but just a word search suffices sometimes. It's OK if it takes a bit of elbow grease to learn something.

Is there a resource available for looking up quotes on specific situation from the stoic texts?

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We had problems with my wife, we were arguing almost every day. We started to go to a therapist and with his advice, we separated our homes. I was living for 3 days at the other home and 4 days with my wife and daughter. We were about to divorce. None of those is an excuse for my behavior of having an affair but I had after separating the homes. After meeting with stoicism 2 years ago I started to cure myself and tried to become a better person. I moved back home, started to be less angry, ended my affair, stopped drinking alcohol, started meditating. I tried to recover my marriage and actually it was working but as Seneca told: "The first and greatest punishment of the sinner is the conscience of sin.". So I decided to tell my wife that I cheated her but I've changed and will never do the things I did ever again. This really broke her heart and she told that she wants to divorce and she is right to do this. I am not sure if I did the right thing by telling her the truth or should I have kept it to save my marriage? What to do when you did things that really harm you and others in your past?

Consider your past and find where your responsibility starts and ends, then have the courage to shoulder that without avoidance. Through this process it will be tempting to ruminate, or self flagelate but avoid this trap as it only does more harm. The damage is done, and you dont have the power to change your past actions so you have to accept that and view your past with that acceptance as this will lead to more learning, and growth. Ruminating will stifle your growth as it's a way to avoid action by living in a past you cant change. Today is a new day and every action you take is a testament to your character, so now that you are trying to do better make sure your actions align with that. You know you fucked up. Everyone fucks up. Your daughter will fuck up too, and it's your job as dad to figure out how to deal with a fuckup so you can lead your daughter through her fuck ups. Teach her by example how a good person moves forward and strives for virtue and wisdom in the face of adversity. At least, that's how I see it.

What to do when you did things that really harm you and others in your past?

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I've been practicing & reading about Stoicism for the past year, which has really changed my life. I've read a lot from the "big three" (Epictetus, Seneca, & Aurelius). I was wondering if there were any philosophers/works that came later, such as medieval times? I've been reading Montaigne's Essays and noticed a great stoic influence and now i'm hungry for more

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/cbo2uk/definitive_list_of_stoic_sources/

Stoic philosophy and texts after the Hellenistic age?

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So recently I've noticed one thing, maybe it's because of my age group that people act like this ( early 20s), that whenever a mutual friend isn't present people start slandering him/her, it might not be malevolent and just banter but still obviously very unstoic, and as people trying to embrace stoicism we should rise above right? I find myself joining the slandering by contributing jokes even though I know I shouldn't, I feel the concept of " group think" applies here, everyone making jokes about someone who isn't there, I try to divert by saying " yeah but he's a nice guy", people say " yeah ofcourse" and then begin their jokes again, and I find myself contributing, a friend of mine said everyone does this and it's human but for sure this has to be avoided right? It would be so classy to be able to not indulge in these acts which are being performed by others who know not better. What advice do you have for me and for this situation? Surely it's not okay to do this? How can I stay strong and have control over myself in these situations?

In my life, a true friend will give you shit/bust your balls to your face. When people talk shit behind someone else's back, it's time to find new friends.

How to overcome visceral urges?

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